Free Republic

President Trump is the vaccine!

Trump-Pence 2020

FYI, full speech:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-whirlpool-corporation-manufacturing-plant/

A puff piece article about Michelle Obama lecturing on personal sacrifice should have a barf alert.

Oh. I meant to add that at first glance the immediate problem that I see with the 1260 years of the Roman empire/Catholic church abuses is that this would seem to be something the apostles were unfamiliar with. But I don’t want to dismiss it out of hand. Perhaps you have a thought on that specific issue.

Thanks for the link. Skimming through it, it seems very interesting. I have not had the time to properly research the topics covered, but I have bookmarked it and intend to explore it further as soon as I get the opportunity.

“It was taken with the same quality camera always used to photograph Bigfoot.”

Unless, of course, Bigfoot is actually a blurry creature.

No, Joe. I’m not your son, Hunter.

“Two reversals in 24 hours—first the ‘Patriots Wear Masks’ email last night, now support for vote by mail.”

Headline is wrong. Not a reversal. Read President Trump’s original (July 30) tweet about mail-in ballots:

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1288818160389558273

“With Universal Mail-In Voting (not Absentee Voting, which is good), 2020 will be the most INACCURATE & FRAUDULENT Election in history.”

The fraudulent media continues to distort what President Trump says. Then, they bury the facts needed to expose their lies by making them very hard to find.

“Something MHGinTN will never share with you (the truth) Early Church Fathers on the Timing of the Rise of Antichrist”

In saying this I hope the truth you are referring to is merely on the issue of the identity of the restrainer. While I do not support the idea that everyone should come up with his or her own idea about everything, there are some areas of Bible interpretation that leave room for disagreement.

Though I can break bread with those who think the restrainer is the Roman government or the Holy Spirit, I am confident that it is Michael the archangel. I also see value in debating issues like this because it forces us to challenge our own assumptions and learn the scriptures more thoroughly. There are certainly things that are settled and nonnegotiable. There are others which require careful study, and over which sometimes even very gifted and godly Bible scholars disagree. This matter seems to be one of them.

“The antichrist cannot come to power until the Body of Christ is removed from this Earth, because it is the Presence of The Holy Spirit in the spirit of His Believers which restrains the lawlessness.”

I disagree on several points. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin to bring repentance. However, this conviction does not “restrain” sin/iniquity/lawlessness. If anything, it causes those who are convicted but who remain in their unrepentant state to become more lawless, not less.

Acts 7:54 (NKJV)
When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.

John 15:22 (NKJV)
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Further, the function of the “restrainer” in 2 Thessalonians 2 is not to restrain the general lawlessness of the world, but to restrain the lawless one from being revealed until the proper time. This event must happen at the precise time God has ordained.

“The wrath of God begins when the Body of Christ is removed”

On this we agree. What we disagree about is what God’s wrath constitutes. God can and will allow His elect to go through times of great deception and delusion, times of war, times of disease, times of famine, and times of persecution. He does not take us out of this world but keeps us from the evil one. However, when God pours out His fiery wrath on the world, at the hands of His holy angels, He will first remove the Church.

One of the major problems the Thessalonians were experiencing is having trouble distinguishing between the trials, tribulations, and persecutions they were experiencing with the terrifying nature of God’s wrath being poured out on the earth in the Day of Wrath. I believe the pre-tribulational rapture view presents the same difficulty.

“In your opinion, what does Day of The Lord / Day of Christ mean? Do you believe it is the period of The Lamb opening the seals thus the seven years of Jacob’s Troubles? Paul had taught the believers in Thessalonika about the coming Day of the Lord. He had also taught them about the ‘gathering together to Him’. The believers were worried that the Day of the Lord seal judgments had arrived and they were not yet gathered to Him.”

The final dispensation/time period before the Millennial Kingdom has several names:

Day of the Lord (term used by Joel and apostles in their writings; it is a time in which the Lord alone will be exalted)
Day of Wrath (refers to the same time period from the perspective of those who experience God’s wrath)
Day of Christ (refers to the same time period from the perspective of believers who are rescued)
Day of God (Peter also calls the Day of the Lord the Day of God)
The End (term used by disciples and Christ at Olivet discourse, and in the book of Daniel)
The Second Coming

But it is not the same as Daniel’s seventieth week. Rather, Daniel’s seventieth week contains the Day of the Lord (the final part of the seven years).

“The phrase a falling away is a later translation, following the DR translation which changed the passage from The Departure to the rebellion. Prior to the DR Catholic Bible the English translations translated ‘apostasia’ as The Departure. We even get our word rapture from what Jerome gave in the Latin for the Greek ‘apostasia’.”

Apostasia is only used in the Bible here and in Acts 21:21, where both times it means apostasy, i.e. a departure or defection from orthodoxy. By orthodoxy I am not referring to a denominational affiliation but to the received doctrines of a faith (in this case Christian). Apostasia is also used 3 times in the Old Testament translation of scriptures into Greek, called the Septuagint. This is significant because about half of the New Testament quotations of the Old Testament rely on a direct quotation of the Septuagint. Paul would have used it in his in-person instructions on this subject to the Thessalonians.

Here is a resource with a more detailed explanation:

https://www.alankurschner.com/2015/09/11/does-apostasia-in-2-thessalonians-23-refer-to-a-physical-departure-i-e-the-rapture/

I will add one point to the above by citing an extra-biblical passage in 1 Maccabees 2:15-29 which can be read here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Maccabees%202%3A15-29&version=DRA

Pay particular attention to the first verse:

1 Maccabees 2:15 (DRA)
And they that were sent from king Antiochus came thither, to compel them that were fled into the city of Modin, to sacrifice, and to burn incense, and to depart from the law of God.

(No, I am not Roman Catholic and do not consider this to be scripture. It is however a historically accurate book with which Paul was familiar as it was part of the Greek version of the Old Testament called the Septuagint.)

Here, Antiochus Epiphanes committed the prototype of the abomination of desolation (which Christ and the apostles said was yet to come). And here it uses the same Greek word to describe the associated apostasy.

It is very likely that Paul taught the Thessalonians about the events described in 1 Maccabees, which also is in harmony with the idea that the spirit of antichrist/lawlessness was not something new or novel that was merely in the distant future. It has been around for a long time. The passage, for a correct understanding of the meaning of the apostasia, is very relevant because it is about an abomination of desolation that had already occurred.

“The Olivet Discourse was given to Jews in answer to their question regarding the end times, end times that had not included the Body of Christ which would be established outside of Judaism.”

This is what I meant earlier when I said that “our eschatological views can and do influence our dispensational views”. There is nothing specifically in the Olivet discourse that points to the message being for the Jews and not for the Church. The Gospels contain many other teachings of Christ which could easily be dismissed as being for Jews and not the Church unless there is some clear demarcation to indicate otherwise. Such an approach would allow any reader to arbitrarily and capriciously dismiss any teaching of Christ out of hand and claim it simply does not apply. But there are many reasons to believe it does include the Church. For example, the persecutions Christ mentions in it are not targeted toward Jewishness specifically but toward those who identify as followers of Christ. Why are they (Christians or Jews?) going to be hated? For Christ’s name. (See Matthew 24:9.) Further, the Gospel (Great Commission of the Church) must be taken to all the world before the End comes. (See Matthew 24:14.)

Other: Bribes
Other: Fraud

I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for you meddling patriots.

“The Presence of the SEED (spirit) of God in the Born Agains restrains the lawless one. A Society with Born Agains actively living therein acts as a natural restraint on sin... When GOD removes the Born Agains from the Earth, from all societies of peoples the lawless one is unrestrained and rises to have the power to rule unrestrained by the Presence of The Holy Spirit in peoples who are The Body of Christ. The Body of Christ as a collective Body, when removed from the Earth, un-restrains the rise of antichrist.”

It seems to me that attributing the role of the 2 Thessalonians 2 “restrainer” to the Holy Spirit is forced upon the next rather than being drawn out of it. I always find it helpful to go back to the text under discussion and be sure that I am not superimposing my own presuppositions on it.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NKJV)
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Re-reading the text, I am reminded of what specifically is being restrained: the revealing of the antichrist, which must happen at a precise time under God’s control. This event is important specifically because Paul says it is one of two things that must occur prior to the Day of the Lord. The other one is the “falling away” or apostasy.

This begs the question of what event signifies the revealing of antichrist. Over the years, all the way back to the apostolic era, many have speculated as to who the antichrist might be. Revelation gives us a clue connected with his name. But the truth is that we don’t know. Until he is revealed it is all speculative. But I think the passage is not referring to merely some Christians becoming aware that a particular man is or may be the antichrist. It is referring to an event.

A pre-trib rapture would require the revealing or unveiling of antichrist to be prior to or at the exact moment of the start of Daniel’s seventieth week, because this event must take place before the Day of the Lord. And the pretrib position must make these seven years equivalent to or part of the Day of the Lord. So the typical speculation is that the signing of the seven-year treaty protecting Israel will identify the antichrist. However, it is not the treaty but the breaking of it that identifies him. And the text here specifically identifies an event that occurs in the exact middle of Daniels seventieth week.

To me, without overwhelming evidence to the contrary, we should assume that it is the abomination of desolation that reveals the antichrist. But if this is the case, then it presents an extreme difficulty for the pretrib rapture position. There is a general consensus among all pre-millennialists (pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath) that the rapture occurs at the arrival of the Day of the Lord. These various positions just have differing views about what constitutes the Day of the Lord. But if antichrist is revealed at the abomination of desolation, and this event must occur before the Day of the Lord, then this also would mean the rapture does not occur until after this event as well.

Books could be and have been written on these issues. I will not presume to resolve all of the related disagreements, but the biggest problem with identifying the “restrainer” as the Holy Spirit is that taking the Holy Spirit out of the world would make it impossible for the massive numbers of people to overcome the strong delusion, be convicted of their sins, repent, and hear, understand, and believe the Gospel, and then endure to the end at a time when the worst trials and tribulations of history are perpetrated against Gods people.

Remember that the Great Commission requires the work of the Holy Spirit, who was prophesied to be coming in the Old Testament. The Gospel must also be preached in the whole world BEFORE the End comes.

Look at this relevant passage about the role of the Holy Spirit (which Peter quotes from on Pentecost):

Joel 2:28-32 (NKJV)
And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit AND the signs and wonders in the heavens (sky) proceed the Day of the Lord. But Christ taught that the heavenly signs follow the Great Tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe we can divide Daniel’s seventieth week into four parts based on the Olivet discourse:

1. time of great deception/false peace
2. beginning of sorrows
3. the Great Tribulation
4. the End/Day of the Lord

The End/Day of the Lord is a time period which is equivalent to the Second Coming, and begins with the rapture and ends with Christ destroying antichrist. But what I am espousing is a pre-wrath view. It asserts that the Church will face antichrist but will NOT experience God’s wrath being poured out on the earth during the Day of the Lord judgments (the trumpet and bowl judgments of Revelation).

“Not trying to dispel your post with a cheap copy/paste, but this is pretty close to how I see it. https://www.gotquestions.org/restrainer.html";

I read article at your link. Like every claim I’ve ever seen attributing that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, there is no exegetical reason. The passage is treated the way cults use random passages as proof texts. This does not automatically mean it or you are incorrect, but I do insist on more than anecdotal evidence to support such a critical and pivotal interpretation.

The idea that the restrainer is Michael is straight from scripture. The abomination of desolation was known to Paul by reading Daniel and also the teachings of Christ, who also cited Daniel and admonished a careful reading of Daniel to understand coming events such as this. It is within this specific context we find angels fighting with principalities of Satan’s kingdom, culminating with Michael’s actions triggering the onset of the Great Tribulation. See Daniel 12... “at that time” which is unequivocally the exact time of the abomination of desolation Paul is referring to in 2 Thessalonians. Further, Revelation indicates exactly where Michael is and what he is doing at this exact moment in chapter 12 of that book.

Make no mistake. God is going to give Michael the command to evict Satan and his angels from Heaven. Michael and his angels will do so. It is only when this event occurs in Heaven, that antichrist will become Satanically driven to set up his throne in the temple to receive the worship of the world.

If Satan had the power, he would destroy Israel and the Church right now. He does not and cannot. However, he will be permitted to operate through antichrist during the second three-and-a-half years of Daniel’s seventieth week. He will only be allowed to do this when Michael does his part. The timing is NOT up to the Devil but is up to God.

“I have a problem with the fact that The Apostle John doesn’t have a clue as to who those people are that came out of the Great Tribulation. He literally can’t identify them. Now if they were the Born Again Church, which he is a member of, he’d easily be able to do that - but here he can’t.”

This is a highly speculative assertion. John was given a mystical vision. There are many things that are not obvious and require explanation. Several had to be explained to John. If you or I saw a great multitude of last-generation Christians, we would not automatically know who they were without any explanation. If I saw a large gathering of Christians in choir uniforms at a football stadium, I could only speculate who they were. The interaction with John was more for our benefit. We get to have who they were explained to us, along with John. These are the last generation of Christians who are alive during the Great Tribulation. We are not told how they get to Heaven. They just suddenly appear. It is possible they all died due to the terrible things that happened on the earth, such as famine, war, and plague. It is possible they were all martyred. But it is also possible they were raptured. While the passage does not answer this question, it is consistent with the sequence of events I’ve listed elsewhere. This is the section of Revelation where the seals are ending and the trumpet and bowl judgments are about to begin. It is, what I believe to be, one section where there is a transition from events of the Great Tribulation into the Day of Wrath.

“There also comes into question the way God focuses on His people throughout history. For most of history, He kept His eyes and focus on Israel. For the past 2,000 years, it’s been the Church. He still has 7 years due to Israel or 1 week. IMHO, that week will begin at the beginning of the ‘covenant with many’ (Daniel 9:27).”

I agree. God’s unique dealing with Israel as His earthly people, and His everlasting, unchanging covenant with the elect remnant of Israel is essential to unravel the meaning of end times prophecies. But it is a case where our eschatological views can and do influence our dispensational views. I do not believe in replacement theology. I believe though that there is an overlap of the Church and Israel because some people are members of both groups. That is certain. The apostles were.

The Church began at Pentecost around 33 AD. But the temple existed, and the apostles continued participating in temple activities, until 70 AD. The apostles were fully part of the Church but were also citizens of Israel. There can easily be overlap between God working in Israel and the Church in the last days at the same time. One crucial element has to do with when “all Israel” repents and is saved. I argue that this cannot occur at the onset of Daniel’s seventieth week. In fact, that is one of the main purposes of this week—to bring Israel to national repentance. At first they will be deceived by antichrist, but later they will “look on Him whom they have pierced” and repent. Doesn’t the sealing of the 144,000 provide compelling evidence that this is when that national repentance occurs?

Also, consider this. How does such an incredibly large multitude of faithful followers of Christ emerge during a time of universal deception, strong delusion, persecution, trials, and the supposed removal of the Holy Spirit from the earth? And how can these people believe, as Paul asked in Romans 10, without a preacher? If ALL of the preachers are to be raptured out, how are 144,000 Jews converted? How are uncountable multitudes of Gentiles (and probably Jews as well) also converted and received into Heaven?

“2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 says this:
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming”

True. And Paul was telling the Thessalonians something he had already taught them and that they knew. This indicates it was not a mystery, such as the aspect of the rapture whereby those believers who are still alive when Christ comes again will be transformed and given new bodies without dying. If this passage was about the Holy Spirit being taken out, there would be other biblical support, but it is lacking. A better understanding of it is that Paul is speaking about his exegetical exposition of Daniel (which he had taught them in person), which is the primary source we have for the final seven years before Christ’s kingdom is set up on earth. Daniel 12 indicates that it is Michael the archangel who is in charge of protecting Israel and will “stand up” at the exact time the abomination of desolation occurs, Satan is cast out of Heaven (by Michael), and antichrist is revealed as an impostor seeking to destroy Israel and followers of Christ. The restrainer is Michael.

Further, this same passage (2 Thessalonians 2) specifically says the Day of the Lord come only AFTER the restrainer quits restraining and the antichrist is revealed. This places the Day of the Lord distinctly AFTER the abomination of desolation, the seventieth week midpoint, and the other events I described above.

As I’ve indicated elsewhere, the sign of the sun and moon being darkened (simultaneous solar and lunar eclipse) will mark the end of the Great Tribulation but the imminence of the Day of the Lord. The rapture will also be imminent after we see this sign. It will be accompanied by destructive asteroids. Antichrist and his mark-wearing minions will be forced to take a break from their horrific and diabolical persecution of Christians to retreat underground in terror because they will also know the Day of Wrath has finally come. But those of us who live through these days will then “look up for [our] redemption draws near.”

Thanks for sharing it. It’s fascinating discussions like these that make FR my go to place to keep informed and be educated.

Mr. Jones, welcome to FR.

“Second Coming of Yeshua (Jesus) Messiah - Feast of Tabernacles 2027”

You do not know the date of Christ’s return.

He did not gives us dates to watch and wait for. He gave us signs. They are in the Olivet Discourse, with more specifics in 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 6. The way we watch for His return is to watch for the signs He gave us.

Date-setters will either not be ready when He comes sooner than expected or will have their faith wrecked when He does not come as soon as they presumed.

The greater danger will be the deception and strong delusion that comes BEFORE the rapture.

Christ warned His disciples, and us indirectly, not to be deceived in the last days because deception will be a tremendous danger, even for the “elect”.

I think the precursor to this deception is the idea that Christians will escape tribulation and will not face the antichrist. I think when he and it arrive, many Christians will become disillusioned and “fall away”.

God will protect His elect through the time of tribulation, but we need to remain faithful now, through our present trials. Many Christians are already experiencing “great tribulation” even if it is not the final, worldwide one yet.

Do you have any biblical support for asserting that Zechariah 12 is about “the Battle of Armageddon” which has been added to the passage you quoted?

Chapter 14 specifically describes this time (to the best of my knowledge) as the Day of the Lord. And this time period culminates with the Battle of Armageddon and Christ’s subsequent reign on earth. But the New Testament supports that the Day of the Lord = the Second Coming of Christ. It begins with the rapture and ends with His descent to the earth at the Mount of Olives and final defeat of His enemies.

I think it is more reasonable to believe, and more consistent with many passages on the subject, that the Day of the Lord will occur during Daniel’s seventieth week (the final part) but after the Great Tribulation (which begins in the exact middle of Daniel’s seventieth week). One of the more important reasons for this distinction is that the Great Tribulation ends with the sign of the sun and moon being darkened, while this same sign is an indication that the Day of the Lord is imminent (i.e. about to begin at any moment).

The rapture will occur at the beginning of the Day of the Lord time period. And this leads me to believe that the passages here referring to Israel’s national repentance will take place at the rapture rather than Christ’s return to the earth.