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No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn
Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 09/23/2003 7:50:20 AM PDT by presidio9

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.


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To: saradippity
You can read how TaT and Bishop O'Malley are doing here. This sure is a disappointment, to say the least. Aksi,the founder of VOTF and one of the biggest dissenters here in Boston, Fr. Cuenin, has just been patted on the back by Bishop O'Malley. You can see what Fr."call me Walter" Cuenin is all about if you do a google search with cuenin and "new yorker" (or check the linked site I put up above) - the interview is no longer on line but parts of it are all over the place - he openly defies the Magisterium regarding same sex marriages (campaigned here for them earlier this year), the teachings on homosexuality, confects his own "Communion bread", etc.

A fear of mine is that TaT will be spread far and wide because Bishop O'Malley gave it the thumbs up.

And parents have no idea! It was just implemented today and all CCD sign-ups and teachers are bought and paid for. Very underhanded.

Curley and Nambla... you don't hear much in the mainstream press, but I just read a piece on the subject in Newsmax online magazine - dealing with Amazon.com selling the NAMBLA magazine subscription that allowed Charles Jaynes "to accept my sexuality and be comfortable with it".

721 posted on 09/23/2003 10:03:03 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Podkayne; american colleen; Catholicguy
taking off the veils was never discussed at Vatican II--a newspaper made it up. So, this "post-V2" girl has decided to don her veil! (actually, I had to start making them) It sure helps keep you focused on God, and makes it difficult to turn away from the altar at Mass... :-)
Oh, and we changed churches when my sons were 6 and 4--I didn't want them getting the idea that it was okay for girls to prance (maybe "slouch" is a better term) around the altar. We found a wonderful, orthodox Church, and I've even started teaching them (and myself) Latin, so they can serve at any of the Masses when the time comes!
722 posted on 09/23/2003 10:04:35 PM PDT by GOP_Thug_Mom (ad majorem dei gloriam!)
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To: GOP_Thug_Mom
Good for you! I waited a bit too long to introduce my kids to the Tridentine and the trip back and forth is looooong, so it can be a hard sell. But they both (ages 14 & 10) see the abuses and silliness in our own parish and others we have attended... so at least they know where to go for refuge!

Veils... I can get black or white, long or short (round doily things) for $7 or $3 dollars locally... if you want me to pick up one or more for you, let me know by FReepmail and I'll send them to you.

Great idea on the Latin! The internet is so good for that kind of thing. And I bet it makes the kids feel smart!

723 posted on 09/23/2003 10:09:04 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion. Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

Sounds like the hierarchy are wine-hogs. I'll bet they won't allow BYOB either.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

Given that members of Roman churches have good cause to doubt their priests' celibacy at the current time, they might not want the priest's hand in their mouth. At least, not without plastic gloves. You never know where that hand has been these days.

Naturally, having never set foot in a Roman church, my understanding is that the priest conjures Christ into all the wafers as a group, not each one individually. I don't grasp their theological reason for insisting that the priest putting the wafer into the mouth is more spiritually effective than the massee (layperson) simply putting it in their own mouth. Is the priest's hand so much more holy than that of the devout believer?

And what of those with weak or compromised immune systems? Might they not be concerned that the priest's hand is being breathed on or even coughed on or sneezed on by people carrying various germs and virii and that the priest touching each wafer could transmit illness? I know I'd want to be the first in line, not the last. Don't Rome's followers deserve a more antiseptic mass?

I think they should just become Baptists. We don't let the clergy have all the wine. And its more antiseptic.
724 posted on 09/23/2003 11:12:55 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: miss marmelstein
Why is it that it is always the losers in the congregation who want to sing off-key solos,

Hmmm - maybe it has something to do with making a joyful noise unto the Lord?

Nah - that would make too much sense. If they're off key, I'd demand my money back.

725 posted on 09/24/2003 2:49:45 AM PDT by Tennessee_Bob (LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?)
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To: Aliska
Matthew 23:

11 He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled: and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

726 posted on 09/24/2003 3:19:27 AM PDT by Catholicguy (Protestant in deed. Catholic in word. They call it "Tradtion." Ain't you yet heard?)
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To: Marysecretary
In Catholic Liturgy it is forbidden.
727 posted on 09/24/2003 3:22:27 AM PDT by Catholicguy (Protestant in deed. Catholic in word. They call it "Tradtion." Ain't you yet heard?)
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To: Marysecretary
"The Holy Spirit moves in different ways..."

Matt 16:16 Jesus builds His Universal (Catholic) Church upon Peter (Pope.)

He sends the Holy Spirit upon it to Teach it all truth John 16:13

The Catholic Liturgy is the work of the Body of Christ. It is formal, solemn, and dignified and the Priests of the Catholic Church, in their role as alter Christus', are supposed to adhere to the Rubrics so as to extinguish, as much as possible, theri own prejudices, preferences, predelictions, and let Jesus work through them as Jesus , through the Priesthood He established, offers Himself to God as a Sacrifice of propitiation. At Mass, Jesus is both Priest and Victim and spontaneous yelling, clapping, cheering, praising ect is out of place in our Liturgy.

The Mass is both a Sacrifice and a Heavenly Banquet and, as such, ought to be formal and orderly.

Now, you are free to do as you desire in your church but don't think what you do is normative for others. I am happy to leave you to worship as you desire.

How's about returning the favor? It might just be the case you don't understand what it is you criticise.

728 posted on 09/24/2003 3:45:11 AM PDT by Catholicguy (Protestant in deed. Catholic in word. They call it "Tradtion." Ain't you yet heard?)
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To: Aliska
"Walking bags of stinking sins. "

Those sins are not going to be forgiven by your therapist - they are going to be forgiven by Jesus through the Priesthood He established in the Sacrament of Confession that He instituted to heal our broken lives and to communicate His grace to us.

You are not going to get better just by speaking to a Therapist.

The Great Doctor, Jesus will get you better when He feeds you His Sanctifying Grace in the Holy Eucharist and that Grace builds upon your fallen human nature and you, over time, become more and more like Jesus and less and less like your former sinful self.

1 Corinthians 11

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,

24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.

25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.

27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep.

I am sorry your affliction is so debilitating but staying away from the Divine Physician will not improve yoour condition.

Come to the Crucifix and bathe your wounds in His cleansing blood. Let the water from the wound in His sacred side cleanse you of all enmity, remorse, and bitterness and let the Bread of life feed you so that you may have life in you and be raised to eternal life on that last day.

Jesus , the Divine Physician, awaits you at Mass.

729 posted on 09/24/2003 4:04:51 AM PDT by Catholicguy (Protestant in deed. Catholic in word. They call it "Tradtion." Ain't you yet heard?)
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To: Aliska
Yes, Jesus did that. Jews freq. referred to Gentiles as dogs. So>

Did the woman run off for a chin-wag with her therapist or did she persevere and because of that perseverance was rewarded with a miracle by Jesus?

Sheesh. I wonder you can make even type so huge is that chip on your shoulder.

730 posted on 09/24/2003 4:12:55 AM PDT by Catholicguy (Protestant in deed. Catholic in word. They call it "Tradtion." Ain't you yet heard?)
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To: Aliska
He appeared to His Mother Mary first. You don't think she kissed the wounds of her son?
731 posted on 09/24/2003 4:18:06 AM PDT by Catholicguy (Protestant in deed. Catholic in word. They call it "Tradtion." Ain't you yet heard?)
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To: Skooz
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Well, not all self-described Christians believe in the sacramentality of Baptism. Nor do we agree on important issues such as the sacraments being the ordinary means of receiving sanctifying grace, the morality of artificial birth control, salvation outside the Church and abortion. These are not trivial issues that can be swept under the rug. Thank God Jesus left us His Church to provide us with clear teaching regarding these issues.

732 posted on 09/24/2003 4:25:58 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: american colleen
Aksi,the founder of VOTF and one of the biggest dissenters here in Boston, Fr. Cuenin, has just been patted on the back by Bishop O'Malley.

Oh crap.

733 posted on 09/24/2003 4:31:57 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: american colleen
Aksi,the founder of VOTF and one of the biggest dissenters here in Boston, Fr. Cuenin, has just been patted on the back by Bishop O'Malley.

Oh crap.

734 posted on 09/24/2003 4:35:36 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Heh heh. I thought I was the only one to stay up late only to start posting again in the morning. :0)

Look, I have no intention of getting into a fratricidal conflict with a brother in Christ. I avoid these "Catholic vs. Protestant" conflicts when I can. They never come to anything. We disagree on some things. But, I'm not going to get bent out of shape at a fellow Christian when an entire world is going to Hell and is in desperate need of Jesus Christ.

We have a commission to preach the Gospel to every creature. I haven't been nearly as faithful in that regard as I should be. I'm not going to waste God's precious time arguing with someone who obviously knows Him already. He is my Lord. I am happy He is yours, also. I'll just leave it at that.

735 posted on 09/24/2003 4:37:28 AM PDT by Skooz (All Hail the Mighty Kansas City Chiefs)
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To: american colleen
Aksi,the founder of VOTF and one of the biggest dissenters here in Boston, Fr. Cuenin, has just been patted on the back by Bishop O'Malley.

Oh crap.

736 posted on 09/24/2003 4:43:41 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Oops, oops, oops.
737 posted on 09/24/2003 4:47:40 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Skooz
I'll just leave it at that.

OK. Via con Dios 8-)

738 posted on 09/24/2003 4:49:34 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
hiccups? :)
739 posted on 09/24/2003 4:53:05 AM PDT by TxBec (Tag! You're it!)
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To: Aquinasfan
I dunno who "Aksi" is (!) that word should have been "Also" - these late nights working and then getting up early just kill me!

Anyway, bad news all around in the Archdiocese of Boston. However which way I roll those steel balls around in my hand (aquired right after the scandal broke in the BG) I can't figure out a good side to the TaT and the Cuenin story.

740 posted on 09/24/2003 5:37:58 AM PDT by american colleen
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