Posted on 09/23/2003 7:50:20 AM PDT by presidio9
No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.
Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.
According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.
The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.
If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.
According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."
The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.
Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.
Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.
The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."
Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.
Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.
The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.
The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.
It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.
Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.
"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.
But there is one on earth to whom even you will kneel. You see him every day when you look in the mirror.
Scripture tells us that Jesus built a church and Jesus tells us that we should take our disputes to the church, "the pillar and foundation of truth." Trust Jesus' Church and the Scriptures which it wrote, canonized and preserved, or trust your infallible interpretation of Scripture. I'll stick with the "pillar and foundation of truth."
Uh. If it's bad, I hope not................
To me, that would be really bad, to assume bad intent without proof.
Sorry. You know the old slams against the Catholic Church "the Whore of Babylon, etc"
Sorry, if I read to much into your post. At first I thought you were really funny " but the right post at the right time" made me take a double take (rightly or wrongly)
No. The "right post at the right time" means I had to be on this thread at just the right time (when I really have other things to do) to catch the 666 spot.
I could have been reading or doing the dishes or taking a shower, but instead I just happened to hit the refresh button and saw 665 had just been posted.
Nothing more sinister than that. Honest. :0)
Which is why I thought at first that the 666 post was hilarious. And it was damn funny.
I apologize for misinterpreting the later posts.
I love you. Jesus loves you. God loves you. Jesus died a cruel death on a lonely cross because He loves YOU that much.
If you had been the only person in the world, He still would have died on the cross to save you.
He hung on the cross for six horrible hours, and you were on His mind every second. He loves YOU that much.
Get into a church that preaches the Word of God without compromise; one that exudes the love of God. There is healing in His love. There is healing in His church.
He truly loves you. But He usually uses flawed people to show His love for you.
Get alone with Him. Take some time--an hour or two--and sit in His presence. Have a nice "OK, God, if You are there and You love me you gotta let me know now" kind of talk with Him. He isn't afraid of that. Take the time and He will show Himself to you.
He created you and can heal every thing within you. Everything you want can be found in Him.
I didn't make up the "of water and the Spirit" part either, which is also in the Word of God. In fact, it's the second half of the sentence.
I thought your posts were spot on... and Biblical records concerning the praise-dances of Miriam and David definitely sound like a "hootenany" to me. In fact, Judges 21:21-23 specifically records that the Daughters of Shiloh danced 'till they got carried away!! (grin -- hoo-boy, somebody stop me...)
But I don't think I coulda gotten away with defending the Psalmist's case myself. Better you, than me -- nobody woulda believed it coming from me.
I am German by Ethnicity and Scot-Presbyterian by religion, after all. You try crossing an Accordian with a set of Bagpipes. Not only does it result in the horrifying mental image of Oktoberfest in Kilts... but you've now got an almost mathematical formula for "ain't got Rhythm", squared.
Or Square. Which, I admit, is also true.
;-)
Best, OP
By what authority did Martin "Bible Alone" Luther remove five books from the Bible? Where in the Bible did he find permission to do that?
Where did he find the doctrine of "the Bible alone" in the Bible?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?A lot more is being discussed here than baptism. Being born "of the Spirit" has nothing to do with baptism, or the sentence is redundant.Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
And where is the doctrine for "Bible plus Church tradition" in the Bible?
This can't be completely true because Jesus commands us to take our disputes to "the church." How can we take doctrinal disputes to churches with contradictory doctrines? From Jesus' same statement we can also deduce that His Church must be visible.
But in another sense you're right. All of the baptized are members of the Body of Christ to some extent.
My church is about 2 miles down the road and to the right. I know the pastors well. If I have a dispute, I take it there. No mystery to that.
I'm sure you take disputes to the priest.
In so doing we have obeyed Christ's command to take our disputes to the Church.
About the "churches with contradictory doctrines;" I believe that there are several absolutes on which we must agree are the foundations of the true Church: Man's sinful condition; Salvation by God's unmerited favor; the Virgin Birth; Christ the only way to salvation; Baptism; Christ's return, etc.
Some of the other stuff (type of music, etc) is a side issue. As long as a church holds the essential doctrines, it is part of the universal Church.
OMG, it doesn't get worse than that. Hopefully that is something being done away with in the reform of the reform.
"Water and the Spirit" succinctly summarizes the sacrament of Baptism. Like all sacraments the matter (in this case water) is an outward sign of the invisible conveyance of grace (in this case initial sanctifying grace).
How do you interpret the phrase "water and the Spirit"?
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