No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[Aquinasfan]

No matter what the rationale behind it all, it makes me feel bad and not as good as the men and I do not believe I am alone in feeling that way.

It's not about feelings. It's about truth. We all have to work to get our feelings in line with the truth. Not the other way around.

[Aliska]

Do you hear yourself?

Yes. I hear the rest of you, too.

[Natural Law]

What I do resent is the unwarranted cheap shots and piling on of those who espouse an anti-Catholic bias in their lives.

I have known a large number of very pious and Godly people who have devoted their lives and forsaken the happiness of family in the service of others. I recruited, trained and managed an Alter Server program at my parish for over 10 years. In this capacity I interfaced with many, many, many clergy, lay persons and Alter Servers throughout the diocese and archdiocese. Please keep in mind that many of the allegations of abuse are fabricated. I will concede that a small but highly visible minority of the Catholic clergy have acted in very un-Catholic and un-Godly ways but I never encountered a single abusive situation or victim. I would venture that the incidence of pedophilia among the clergy is far lower than the population in general.

[Aquinasfan]

No. You must be born again.

"...of water and the Spirit." Meaning Baptism.

"Go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

If one truly "accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior," then one IS born again. That isn't just saying a few words according to a script. It is repenting of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ as payment for our sins, and determining to live a life of obedience to His divine will.

Can someone who is "born again" by your definition ever fall away?

[Aliska]

I don't think any decent-minded catholic man would want me and I've become pretty settled in my ways.

I tried to hope in God for so long that things could be different for me that I've given up. It's easier not to get your hopes up any more, then you won't get disappointed again.

I'm so turned off by the church now that it would take an almost superhuman effort to even try to find my way back.

I shouldn't have let myself get caught up in this today. There is no magic bullet to make things right again. If it is self pity, then I have one more thing to try to overcome.

[onehipdad]

Thanks, I've been there a few times i.e. Ash Wednesday. have to try Sunday Mass.

[NeoCaveman]

Man hating feminist out-of-habit "sisters" don't want to get boys to serve.

A nun without a habit is a spiritualist nudist --- some nice old priest said so.

[NeoCaveman]

"And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls."
OH....i get it.

I am going to be charitable and assume that isn't a cheap shot by an anti-Catholic bigot. I hope I am right.

[NYer]

I don't think I will ever heal; the scars are too deep and it's gone on too long.

Aliska ... keep repeating that to yourself. You and ONLY you are responsible for your misery or happiness. It seems you have chosen misery.

The other freepers on this thread have extended sympathy and support. Your response is to wallow in your misery. If that is what you seek, then that is what you will receive.

If the catholic church cannot deliver what you "as a woman" would like to have, then leave! There are plenty of other religions where women are elevated to the rank of "priest(ess)", and deliver sermons. No one is holding you back, except yourself! The catholic church is what she is, unchangeable. The Bible is what it is ... the word of God! Not feminist enough for you, then go to where the religious teachings match your belief system.

[NeoCaveman]

Man, I respect your beliefs, I think you have a relationship with our Lord which I would never dream of criticisizing, but if we Catholics need and want a more reverent form of church service...like our ancestors had for almost 2,000 years, then why should it bother you?

[Skooz]

Can someone who is "born again" by your definition ever fall away?

Once someone is born again, they can never lose their salvation. Never.

They can, however, throw it away. So the answer to your question is "yes."

I don't make this stuff up. It is detailed explicitly in the Word of God. It isn't my definition. It is God's requirement for salvation.

It is impossible to be born again without repentance.

[saradippity]

Maybe I was not clear enough. If you receive the Body and Blood of Christ,you will be filled with all you need to do whatever He asks you to do.

Now I am wondering how long you have been a Catholic? How many parishes have you belonged to? Do you think there is any possibility that the priests,who confected the Eucharist,had no intention of doing what the Church intends? Were they all ordained by the same bishop? Is the bishop,to the best of your knowledge,a bishop who intends to do what the Church intends?

I don't mean to pry,but lately I have been mullling over some things that involve the efficacy of the Eucharist and your statements tangentially relate to some of the things I have been thinking about. Thanks.

[Alberta's Child]

Not a single altar boy that I grew up with (I was one from 8-12) ever became a priest...so why should we have been altar boys?

To serve God in the holy sacrifice of the Mass, and in the process to gain a rudimentary understanding of the priesthood.

Not a single kid that I grew up with ever became an archaeologist -- does that mean that those class trips to the Museum of Natural History were a waste of time?

[Aliska]

I never felt anything after receiving the Eucharist, only sadness and guilt.

[NeoCaveman]

Not a single kid that I grew up with ever became an archaeologist -- does that mean that those class trips to the Museum of Natural History were a waste of time?

Dominus vobiscum AC :-)

[NeoCaveman]

I never felt anything after receiving the Eucharist, only sadness and guilt.

That's the saddest thing I have ever seen written. I hope you find some peace in this life. I mean it sincerely.

[Aliska]

If that is what you seek, then that is what you will receive.

That is not what I seek and you ought to be more sensitive to know that. I sought healing.

[saradippity]

Yes,I gathered that. That was why I asked you all the questions I asked.

[rdb3]

It doesn't really bother me. I was trying to compare this article with what I know of the Scriptures.

Since I hold the Word as only contained within the Holy Bible with nothing subtracted nor added, I find it curious that praise would be so regulated.

But that's just me. I have no personal problems with Catholics serving the way they think is correct. And I most certainly don't wish to be accused of "bashing" anyone. Throughout this thread, I don't believe that I have bashed Catholics or Catholicism.

One is my brother or sister in Christ if they are born again. I take my cue from Paul that I determined not to know anything except for Jesus Christ, and him crucified (I Cor. 2:2).

[Aliska]

I hope you find some peace in this life.

Thank you. I will try not to give up.