No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[NeoCaveman]

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot do this sort of thing. It looked like a skinhead rally in there and I refused to do it. Instead I said a simple, silent prayer that the catechists would do well this year and left it at that.

You did the right thing. Dominus vobiscum.

[Aquinasfan]

And where is the doctrine for "Bible plus Church tradition" in the Bible?

Several times Paul tells his disciples to "hold fast to the teachings we have passed on to you either by word of mouth or by letter.

This stands to reason because for written Tradition (the Bible) to stand at all oral Tradition must be acknowledged as valid. Why? Because until the Gospels were written, all the Church had was Oral Tradition. In fact, the doctrine of "the Bible alone" would have been totally impossible in the first 400 years of the Church's existence since the New Testament wasn't canonized until around the year 400 A.D.

[Aquinasfan]

Which is why I thought at first that the 666 post was hilarious. And it was damn funny.

It was 8-)

[NeoCaveman]

Thanks AF, I've lurked these kind of threads forever...and I trust your take on them.

[NeoCaveman]

And heck, Luther removed 5 books, by what authority did he do that, none.

All our Christian brothers and sisters owe us a debt of gratitude or else they'd be reading a Bible that included the (phony) Gospel of Thomas.

[Desdemona]

And heck, Luther removed 5 books, by what authority did he do that, none.

Luther removed seven - Tobit, Sirach, Wisdom, Judith, 1 & 2 Maccabbees and Baruch. He tried to remove six more from the New Testament and an additional 2 from the old, but for some reason put them back.

[NeoCaveman]

He tried to remove six more from the New Testament and an additional 2 from the old, but for some reason put them back.

Luther tried to scrub every implied reference to purgatory. For whatever reason he wasn't totally successful.

[Desdemona]

The team or Jesus? The choice isn't that hard, is it?

Well, when Father is coaching the team, no it isn't - 8 am Mass and don't be late. And it only is really bad for swimmers. We used to rotate who went to Mass when in order to have competant people running the bullpen, since sessions start at 7 am. If not there was always the 9 pm at the Newman Center on Sunday.

[NeoCaveman]

I am a divorced, mentally ill, catholic convert female who is sidelined in church and society. Because I have need of therapy, that puts me in the untouchable category when it comes to having any meaningful insights into the human condition. I only referred to myself as "womyn" because I can relate to their outcast status. I hate that word and it makes me angry when I see it used. It is only used in a derogatory manner.

Of course it is only used in a derogary manner, otherwise it would be written "women". I hope we can dailogue because your post hit me hard the one where you said the thing about feeling guilty after taking communion, or something like that. That made me sad. I'd like to discuss, if you do not mind. If you do, mind that's cool then I won't bug you.

[NeoCaveman]

The first English translation of the bible was Catholic. The Douey-Rheims. Yes, it's still in print, thanks to Tan Books. Douay-Rheims Online

I'm ordering a Doyah-Rheims next week, used, as far as I know it's out of print. So I am ordering a used one online.

(Way off topic, Go Tribe)

[VermiciousKnid]

I have been there and done that one too many times. I am going to the rectory tomorrow to set up an appointment with Monsignor.

One of my girlfriends says that Monsignor will pay me back by making me join the Liturgy Committee. That'll teach me!

Regards,

[VermiciousKnid]

One can only hope.

Regards,

[Desdemona]

One of my girlfriends says that Monsignor will pay me back by making me join the Liturgy Committee. That'll teach me!

Well, be sure to have a glass of wine before you go. You can't do those meetings completely sober.

[Aliska]

Please don't be sad. I feel a little better after talking to my deacon. Part of the guilt is due to scruples, I suppose, and the rest is something else which I don't understand. Maybe we can take up the discussion later. I've spent more time here than is good for me today.

I think the most difficult thing is that when I became aware of all the bickering over the liturgy, I despaired of ever receiving all the graces I need for myself and those I pray for because they are being blocked because of breaking the rules. That may not be true. God is powerful enough that he can work outside of normal channels and outside the church if need be, if we are open to him.

[VermiciousKnid]

What are you talking about "GLASS???" I figure I'll just bring the bottle and be done with it.

In vino veritas and all that...

Regards,

[Desdemona]

CHEERS!

SALUTE!

SLAINTE!

and all that....

[american colleen]

I just had to skip catechisis Sunday at my parish this year. Much of the same goings on as you report only this year "Talk about Touching" (program written by a secular company with ties to SIECUS) will be implemented in our parish grades 1 -4 CCD programs with the blessings of our new Bishop O'Malley. :-(

I took refuge in the local Indult. No clapping, no altar girls in sneakers (heck, no one in sneakers!), tabernacle front and center, COnfession before Mass, and the most beautiful liturgy, homily and most of all, time to pray and worship without interruption.

A couple of weeks ago our parish priest told the parents to turn to their children and bless them - your story reminded me of it. I can't figure it out... but I noticed that no one actually did it.

[saradippity]

Well,you had quite the service,didn't you? Once I had a little fun with that stupid blessing ritual,I came in a little late and said,so that everyone in the back of the church could hear,"Holy Mackeral,it looks like they're "Heiling Hitler",nice and loud. It is one of the best things about getting older,I could be talking loud because I might be deaf or addled or eccentric. No one quite knows.

I agree with you about those songs especially "Lord of the Dance".There is another really goofy one that has something to do with "sing a new church into being",it's best quality is the fact that it is utterly tuneless,it gets out of your head real quickly.

But Sunday,in anotherwise reasonably moderate New Order Mass ,they sang a song over and over and over. The words were

We've got to love,love,love each other,

We've got to love,love,love ourselves.

We've got to love,love,love Jesus.

We've got to love,love,love.

It was the most bizarre and ridiculous thing I've ever heard in church,I longed for a dozen over ripe tomatoes,I thought of nothing else until the mass was over,in fact I got into my car and thought I should go to the grocery store. Then I thought,what do I need? And realized I still wanted those over ripe tomatoes.

[VermiciousKnid]

At least "The Lord of the Dance" has a nice tune to it. Of course, we Catholics swiped that one from the Shakers and didn't even have the decency to keep their original words.

Then again, every time my husband hears "Lord of the Dance" he gets a vision of Michael Flatley jetee-ing across the altar wearing nothing but tight pants and a headband...

Anyway, wish me luck with my meeting; something's gotta give around here, and I just hope it doesn't result in me walking out entirely. I can't take much more of this.

Regards,

[saradippity]

Talk About Touching is an absolute abomination and no parent should permit their child to be exposed to that type of programming. What are they doing? Trying to animalize America? How could srchbishop O'Malley approve of that? I am sure that there was something written by the Vatican on sex education and forbidding that classes be given without the express consent of the parents and it also cautioned the parents to know the course content.

Is there any movement afoot to stop it?

How is the Curley family vs. Nambla coming along. I know it was not thrown out of court as the ACLU asked. You know it was about the little 8 or 10 year old boy in Boston that was murdered and sodomized by the two homosexuals,one of whom had Nambla literature. It was a case that was so much more tragic than the Matthew Shepard case and yet there has been virtually no atention paid to it. What's happening?