The Christ of Arminianism

A Puritan's Mind ^ | unknown | Rev. Steven Houck

[dangus]

>>The Christ of the Roman Catholics can not save sinners without their own good works and the intercession of priests.>>

That's like saying YHWH couldn't lead the Israelites out of the Desert without an old man and a staff, or that Christ couldn't feed 5,000 people without seven loaves and two fishes, or that He couldn't make himself known to the Romans without Paul.

Christ can do whatever he wills. He wills us to be a Church, not just a mob of like-minded individuals. You know, the Church even does teach of the "sacrament of desire," by which Christ moves extraordinarily to give the blessing of his sacrament, when one sincerely wishes to receive the sacrament, but there is no-one to administer it to him.

Why do I bother responding to such an ignorant statement? Simply to not let the constant, droning lies of the enemy (meaning Satan, not nobdysfool) be mistaken for the truth by mere repitition.

[ksen]

The author neglects to mention that many Calvinists are "saved" through the preaching of this "false" Christ. How can a "false" Christ save?

[ksen]

Check out this verse we went through in Sunday School class yesterday...

II Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

So our salvation AND calling were given to us in Christ before the world began.

[dangus]

>>He commands us to do what he commands because what he commands is the RIGHT and holy thing to do.>>

SO it is the RIGHT thing to do to vainly offer the promise of salvation to everyone, baptising the pathetic fools in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, even though you know that they are damned to Hell, before they were even born?

Some God you have, who would create people for the sole purpose of watching them suffer, forever tormenting them in Hell, just so he could impress his chosen few with what a great guy he is! (Or do you hold that Satan created the sould afflicted with a lack of grace?)

No, I'll take my Catholic God, who calls us all to do What Jesus Would Do. He DID offer himself as propitiation for sins, but he calls us to become like him by sharing in his suffering and sacrificing ourselves for others' sin, so that we may also share in his glory.

[dangus]

In your passage from Romans, I see nothing saying, "I chose certain people to be evil." Even the people who were crucifying him were offered forgiveness.

He KNOWS before we are born what we WILL do, and prepares us so that what we do fits into his great plan.

[CCWoody]

Some God you have, who would create people for the sole purpose of watching them suffer, forever tormenting them in Hell, just so he could impress his chosen few with what a great guy he is! (Or do you hold that Satan created the sould afflicted with a lack of grace?) ~ dangus

1. God perfectly foreknew before he was ever created that a man would never submit to Him and would burn in Hell forever, yet created him anyway to this end.
2. God did not perfectly foreknow before he was ever created that a man would never submit to Him, but had to create him to find out what the man would do.

You pick, dangus. Will you affirm...


1. the Omniscience of God and admit that the LORD has made all things for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the Day of Doom,
   
   --- OR ---
   
   
2. will you deny the Omniscience and admit to being a blasphemer of God.

What say ye?

Woody.

You Might Be an Arminian If....

You think that "Calvinism" is arrogant for saying that God elects some and not others, but you think you are really humble for saying that God elected you because He knew you'd think He was a pretty swell dude for offering you a life preserver even though you were only in the shallow end of the pool anyway, and that in your niceness, you'd accept His offer of your own "free will".

[Texas_Dawg]

SO it is the RIGHT thing to do to vainly offer the promise of salvation to everyone, baptising the pathetic fools in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, even though you know that they are damned to Hell, before they were even born?

Huh? How do I know if they have been "damned to Hell" or not?

He DID offer himself as propitiation for sins, but he calls us to become like him

Well, have you succeeded in being like Him yet? Good luck with that.

When you die and stand before Christ, I hope you have a better reason for His accepting you to live in eternity with him than that you at least partially deserve it. (Not that He still won't accept you anyway... which I hope He does, of course.)

[Frumanchu]

"The LORD is patient, not willing that ANY should perish, but "EVERYONE" to come to repentence." 2 Peter 3:9b. If God "chose" who will be saved and will "not be saved" "Sovereignly, then why did Jesus tell his disciples to "Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you, baptizing them in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost"?

Let me turn that around on you. If God is, as you put forth, not willing that any individual person should perish, but that every individual person should come to repentence, then how do you explain Christ's words in Matthew 11:

"At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matt 11:25-27

Or the fact that Jesus deliberately spoke in parables to prevent men from coming to repentance:

"And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." -Mark 4:11-12

Going back to Matthew 11, just prior to thanking the Father for hiding such things from men, Christ revealed that repentance and salvation was possible for Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom...and yet the miracles which would have brought about such repentance were withheld from them:

"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee." -Matthew 11:20-24

Is there disunity among the Godhead? Are the First and Second Persons of the Trinity in disagreement over desire, intent and purpose? How do you explain such contradictions, webber?

[Corin Stormhands]

How can a "false" Christ save?

Maybe they think he's a temporary one until the real one gets there.

[dangus]

>> but you think you are really humble for saying that God elected you because He knew you'd think He was a pretty swell dude for offering you a life preserver even though you were only in the shallow end of the pool anyway, and that in your niceness, you'd accept His offer of your own "free will". >>

Well, see that's where the whole thing about not judging comes in. CALVINISTS believe they're simply created better than other people; they're good, everyone else is evil. Catholics recognize that that they have been saved by God, but through the workings of the Church. Not becuase they were created Godly while others were created evil, but because others suffered for their salvation. And they offer prayers and sacrifices so that all may be saved:
"O my Jesus, forgive us our sins; save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven ESPECIALLY those in MOST NEED of your MERCY." Pray that over and over again, and its difficult to subscribe to the heresy that your own good works were the CAUSE of your salvation.

[dangus]

Yeahhhh.... Catholics and Calvinists agree on that. It just takes time for people to RESPOND to their purpose.

[Frumanchu]

In your passage from Romans, I see nothing saying, "I chose certain people to be evil." Even the people who were crucifying him were offered forgiveness.

He does not have to choose them to be evil. The are so of their own accord. He need only choose which to save.

He KNOWS before we are born what we WILL do, and prepares us so that what we do fits into his great plan.

If God is merely reactionary, then why does Scripture portray Him as taking an ACTIVE role in bringing people to salvation?

[Frumanchu]

Well, see that's where the whole thing about not judging comes in. CALVINISTS believe they're simply created better than other people; they're good, everyone else is evil.

Umm...you do know what the U in TULIP stands for, yes? Either you forgot, or you're swinging away at the Scarecrow.

[ksen]

Maybe they think he's a temporary one until the real one gets there.

Jesus.tmp until they get Jesus.Sav downloaded?

[drstevej]

Jesus -- beta version?

[Frumanchu]

SO it is the RIGHT thing to do to vainly offer the promise of salvation to everyone, baptising the pathetic fools in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, even though you know that they are damned to Hell, before they were even born?

Can you please explain to me where you got the notion that Calvinists somehow possess the knowledge of a man's heart and whether or not he is among the elect?

Some God you have, who would create people for the sole purpose of watching them suffer, forever tormenting them in Hell, just so he could impress his chosen few with what a great guy he is! (Or do you hold that Satan created the sould afflicted with a lack of grace?)

So God was powerless to stop men from falling. Surely God had the choice to begin with as far as whether or not He would create men, knowing that He would watch them suffer and forever torment them. Poor man. But God can suppress His conscience by 'impressing' us with His brutality.

Again...tell me what led you to believe that Calvinists hold this view, because you certainly didn't get it from us.

[Frumanchu]

Jesus -- beta version?

I'll stick to my alpha/omega version :)

[dangus]

I choose:

3. God perfectly knew that ALL men were sinners, and ALL men would reject him, yet he created Man anyway, and then sent his only Son to them so that his Son would save ALL men.

See, I am forbidden by God to presume apon his mercy, so I must work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. At the same time, I am commanded to forgive EVERYONE and judge no-one, in the confidence that Jesus calls ANYONE to him.

Even though I know of my salvation, I must hate my sin, with perfect contrition (repentence for the sake of hating sin, rather than out of fear).

There is a logical trap to the question of whether we are saved or not, that requires a third condition: Partly saved, partly in sin. Souls in this state go to purgatory. And the only reason you don't have prugatory in your bible is that you followed Martin Luther in desecrating God's Word. (The Jews removed passages they didn't like in the Council fo Jamnia, in AD 90, after the gospels were written. Luther followed the reasoning of the Jews, and not the Christians whem he removed 7 1/2 books from the bible.)

[Frumanchu]

There is a logical trap to the question of whether we are saved or not, that requires a third condition: Partly saved, partly in sin. Souls in this state go to purgatory. And the only reason you don't have prugatory in your bible is that you followed Martin Luther in desecrating God's Word. (The Jews removed passages they didn't like in the Council fo Jamnia, in AD 90, after the gospels were written. Luther followed the reasoning of the Jews, and not the Christians whem he removed 7 1/2 books from the bible.)

LOL! A logical trap indeed.

I'll lump that under the same heading as 'partly dead' and 'partly pregnant.'

[Gamecock]

***Sad that they actually think this is the "gospel."***


Sad that you think that we say that. I have never made, nor would I dare make such a proclamation.

Fellow Calvinists?