Posted on 06/07/2021 5:23:12 PM PDT by Its All Over Except ...
The Talmud/Mishnah states that the Masoretic Text (a medieval text used by the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc) was corrupted as the Talmud/Mishnah described conflicting texts, contradictions, and multiple, competing rabbis intentionally altering scriptures and thus they ultimately corrupted it). The Septuagint (translated in the mid 3rd century BC) is far older than the Masoretic Text (MT) and the MT isn't original scripture and not a BC text anyway.
Paleo Hebrew, used after Moses' time and used from the 12th to 6th century BC (around 2,000 years older than the MT), gave way to Square Hebrew (around 1,300 years older than the MT), which then eventually gave way to Greek, as evidenced by the Septuagint, which is around 1,000 years than the MT. The Septuagint predates Christianity, used when Greek became the lingua franca, and its use in synagogues around the Mediterranean was substantial.
Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint (LXX) within the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) preserve the originals, and overwhelmingly disagree with the MT in numerous instances; the Septuagint predates Christianity and scrolls from it are found within the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1.) Exodus 1:5 in the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT/KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE/ that all the souls from Jacob were 75, not 70, thus agreeing with St. Stephen in Acts 7:14.
2.) The older DSS, the Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, etc, agree with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NASB/NIV) for Deut. 32:8-9 in using sons/angels of God and not sons of Israel.
3.) The DSS for Deuteronomy 32:43 lines up with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE) saying the angels are to worship messiah.
4.) The Septuagint for 1 and 2 Samuel are backed up by 3 DSS and the MT is known among scholars as botching 1 and 2 Samuel badly.
5.) The MT wrongly (some evidence for #4) has Saul becoming king at age one and ruling for two years.
6.) The MT actually left out an entire line from Psalm 145 that the DSS and the Septuagint preserved, thus the so-called masters of vowel memorization not only forgot vowels but also consonants.
7.) Psalm 40:6(7): a messianic proof text for the Incarnation:
The MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE): Thou hast dug out my ears.
The Septuagint: A body thou hast prepared me.
8.) Concerning another messianic psalm, Psalm 22:16, the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT.
9.) Baruch, Sirach, Tobit, and Psalm 151 are written in Hebrew in the DSS.
10.) ▪︎The chronology of Genesis 11 and the year of the flood of the Paleo Hebrew and the Septuagint line up against the MT. Shem is not Melchizedek:
▪︎Literary sources before 100 AD that agree with the LXX: 2 Esdras, Josephus and Philo (30/70 AD) did not use the Septuagint but used Square Hebrew texts to come to their conclusion that lines up with the Septuagint.
▪︎Eupolemus, the Jewish 2nd century BC historian's chronology, comes close to aligning with the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
▪︎Jewish Demetrius the Chronicler's (3rd century BC) chronology comes very close to the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
*Justin Martyr said the scriptures were being altered in his time period. See Jeremiah 8:8.
▪︎https://biblearchaeology.org/research/biblical-chronologies/4349-mt-sp-or-lxx-deciphering-a-chronological-and-textual-conundrum-in-genesis-5
Since synagogues around the Mediterranean used the Septuagint and Square Hebrew, even in Palestine, Greek was the lingua franca, Jesus grew up near Sepphoris where Hebrew and Greek were both spoken and where Joseph could ply his trade, Christ quoted the scriptures, spoke to the Syrophoenician woman, and Mark/Luke were written to Romans/Greeks, some will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus used only Hebrew.
Outside Judea, close to 100% of the diaspora synagogue inscriptions are in Greek. In Judea, where the default language is Aramaic, 80% of synagogue inscriptions are in Greek.
Some have said the Deuterocanon was never written in Hebrew but the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) proved that to be false as at least 3 so far (Baruch, Sirach, and Tobit of the Deuterocanon), have been found within the DSS written in Hebrew, and using the word "recension" against them is a continual knee-jerk reaction to the Deuterocanon being written in Hebrew and thus a moving of the goal posts.
Concerning key messianic scriptures, Catholics, Copts, Orthodox, and Protestants see that the leaven of the rabbis and then later the Masoretes seemed to target scriptures that point to Jesus Christ. (Matthew 16:6).
The Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint all agree with each other against the MT far more than they disagree, thus the starting point is to sideline the MT in favor of the totality of the Septuagint, Paleo Hebrew, Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, Peshitta, Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and others which provide substantially older Old Testaments.
There are dozens and dozens of instances where the Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint agree against the MT: By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established. Deut. 19:15; 2 Cor. 13:1.
Given that Septuagint scrolls were found with Paleo Hebrew and Square Hebrew scrolls in the DSS, one would again be hard-pressed to prove that Christians composed the Septuagint and, as well, the Torah was translated into Greek from 283-246 BC under Ptolemy II Philadelphus and the prophets and writings within the next 100 years.
Septuagint Chronicles is quoted by Eupolemos in the middle of the 2nd century BC, and Septuagint Job by Pseudo-Aristeas in the beginning of the 1st century BC thus Christians and certainly not Origen created it. Furthermore...
The translation of Isaiah contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BCE" (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Emanuel Tov, p 131, 2012).
Septuagint fragments found at Qumran (Lev.), the Nahal Hever (Habbakuk, near Ein Gedi), dated 50 BC, Deut. fragments dates 2nd century BC.
Proseuche (forerunner to the synagogue) foundation stones in Egypt are dated 120 to 240 BC. If you gather in a church or synagogue, its origins are found in Hellenistic Egypt as they are foreign to temple-only thought. The synagogue ultimately spread to Israel along with the Septuagint (Theodotus inscription, in Greek, a synagogue in Jerusalem, 1st century AD).
Archaeological surveys "...of Palestinian synagogue inscriptions revealed that 67 were in Greek, 54 were in Aramaic and 14 in Hebrew. Most of the Greek inscriptions were found in the coastal and important inland cities." (Caesarea under Roman rule, Lee Levine).
Concerning archeological findings: the Delos synagogue dates to 250 BC and the Magdala synagogue: dates to 50 BC.
There was almost exclusive use of Greek in all synagogue inscriptions everywhere in the world.
Elsie does that in each post. No reading of the article or even the topic at hand, just lame attempts at “humor”. And his arguments are basically along the lines of “sez you”
I think you have summarized my thoughts fairly well. I am inclined to believe that we have the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit wishes us to have. I have studied the MT in great depth - and so find deep Spiritual revelations there. I have cross referenced those discoveries to the Septuagint and found those revelations lacking.
A couple of points 'All Over' sped by. The Masoretes did not do their work in a few years or even in the span of a single lifetime. They had received corrupted and error ridden texts from centuries of copying and they prayed for guidance to cleanse them and try to restore them to God's original intent. Contrary to the poster's position that there are deep differences with the DSS, I have seen many commentators remark on the marvelous compatibility of the two texts.
Another point; all the alternate texts mentioned by 'All Over' are readily available on the www - a marvel in itself. The Bible student is free to read and evaluate all available texts, even the Gnostic Nag Hammadi distractions.
In all spiritual studies the student needs greatly to ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. 😇
You have been dissed ... but consider the source. LOL
In the beginning...THE WORD that was with God and that was God...and The WORD that was made flesh and dwelt amongst us...When the words get crazy, just thinking about THE WORD MADE FLESH snaps everything back into focus. If words fail us and the argued threads of doctrine become to dense and esoteric to fathom, we need only remember the WORD being made alive in us everyday, renewing our inner men daily...though our outer man perishes. It all comes down to the simple promise our Lord made, makes and will always make...”Lo I am with you always, even unto the end of the Word!”
You mentioned this idea came from the Eastern church. I agreed.
That raises the question, what is she the mother of? Do you believe Mary was the Mother of God in His deity, humanity, or both? What precisely are you saying when you say Mary as the mother of God Jesus? Is she the mother of the eternal God?
Huh? While I love reading all the verses that states Christ as the Son of God, we’re talking about Mary being Christ’s mother. Now if you have a verse which shows the disciples worshiping Mary, I’d love to see that.
Our dear beloved Mary was nothing more than another sinner saved by Christ’s love. As such she is accorded every spiritual blessing just like all believers.
You are confusing Greek for Hebrew. I can find nowhere that the term "cousin" is used in the Hebrew text. Jeremiah 32, refers three times to "Hanamel the son of Shallum your uncle is coming" but it never uses a Hebrew word for cousin.
The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of “brothers” to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives.
If this were the case then Paul would never have referred to Mark as Barnabus' cousin.
Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.
Which just underscores why one has to go back to the original Greek and not rely upon the Septuagint. If in John 7 and elsewhere the writer was talking about "cousins", then in the original Greek it would have appear as anepsios. I'm sure John would have known the difference.
Masons start out as hod carriers.
I guess I could be humorless, but where's the fun in that??
And his arguments are basically along the lines of “sez you”
Now Honey; you KNOW that they are along the lines of, "Sez the Bible."
At least I don't flood the thread with volumes of data from "sez these guys" - good, ol' Early Church Fathers cherry picked writings.
Only after I have exhausted my supply of ad hominins.
All this rain has vastly increased the abundance of toads in my yard.
Kinda makes me wonder what the word INCARNATION means.
HMMMmmm...
Accidently or on purpose??
They can help decrease the pesky insect population though ...
Well, to put it into an idea that folks can understand these days, she was the spool of plastic thread that is the raw source material in a 3D printer.
The software(Holy Spirit) supplies the instructions to the machine(Mary) to create the shape that is desired(Jesus: INCARNATE).
In biological terms, the MAN supplies the instructions (via sperm) that tells the machine(womb) how to create the output(baby).
The man doesn’t supply ALL the instructions; as his design gets modified by the mother’s input as well.
We know Jesus walked the earth with a body, a behavior mechanism )soul of mind emotions and will) and a spirit. Was that spirit a human spirit into which God placed His Holy Spirit??
Bookmark
your little digs at chuckles are just "sez you"
Let's see - your post #94 "So; you read Greek; eh?" is a good example
I have no idea.
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