Posted on 06/07/2021 5:23:12 PM PDT by Its All Over Except ...
The Talmud/Mishnah states that the Masoretic Text (a medieval text used by the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc) was corrupted as the Talmud/Mishnah described conflicting texts, contradictions, and multiple, competing rabbis intentionally altering scriptures and thus they ultimately corrupted it). The Septuagint (translated in the mid 3rd century BC) is far older than the Masoretic Text (MT) and the MT isn't original scripture and not a BC text anyway.
Paleo Hebrew, used after Moses' time and used from the 12th to 6th century BC (around 2,000 years older than the MT), gave way to Square Hebrew (around 1,300 years older than the MT), which then eventually gave way to Greek, as evidenced by the Septuagint, which is around 1,000 years than the MT. The Septuagint predates Christianity, used when Greek became the lingua franca, and its use in synagogues around the Mediterranean was substantial.
Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint (LXX) within the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) preserve the originals, and overwhelmingly disagree with the MT in numerous instances; the Septuagint predates Christianity and scrolls from it are found within the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1.) Exodus 1:5 in the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT/KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE/ that all the souls from Jacob were 75, not 70, thus agreeing with St. Stephen in Acts 7:14.
2.) The older DSS, the Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, etc, agree with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NASB/NIV) for Deut. 32:8-9 in using sons/angels of God and not sons of Israel.
3.) The DSS for Deuteronomy 32:43 lines up with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE) saying the angels are to worship messiah.
4.) The Septuagint for 1 and 2 Samuel are backed up by 3 DSS and the MT is known among scholars as botching 1 and 2 Samuel badly.
5.) The MT wrongly (some evidence for #4) has Saul becoming king at age one and ruling for two years.
6.) The MT actually left out an entire line from Psalm 145 that the DSS and the Septuagint preserved, thus the so-called masters of vowel memorization not only forgot vowels but also consonants.
7.) Psalm 40:6(7): a messianic proof text for the Incarnation:
The MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE): Thou hast dug out my ears.
The Septuagint: A body thou hast prepared me.
8.) Concerning another messianic psalm, Psalm 22:16, the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT.
9.) Baruch, Sirach, Tobit, and Psalm 151 are written in Hebrew in the DSS.
10.) ▪︎The chronology of Genesis 11 and the year of the flood of the Paleo Hebrew and the Septuagint line up against the MT. Shem is not Melchizedek:
▪︎Literary sources before 100 AD that agree with the LXX: 2 Esdras, Josephus and Philo (30/70 AD) did not use the Septuagint but used Square Hebrew texts to come to their conclusion that lines up with the Septuagint.
▪︎Eupolemus, the Jewish 2nd century BC historian's chronology, comes close to aligning with the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
▪︎Jewish Demetrius the Chronicler's (3rd century BC) chronology comes very close to the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
*Justin Martyr said the scriptures were being altered in his time period. See Jeremiah 8:8.
▪︎https://biblearchaeology.org/research/biblical-chronologies/4349-mt-sp-or-lxx-deciphering-a-chronological-and-textual-conundrum-in-genesis-5
Since synagogues around the Mediterranean used the Septuagint and Square Hebrew, even in Palestine, Greek was the lingua franca, Jesus grew up near Sepphoris where Hebrew and Greek were both spoken and where Joseph could ply his trade, Christ quoted the scriptures, spoke to the Syrophoenician woman, and Mark/Luke were written to Romans/Greeks, some will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus used only Hebrew.
Outside Judea, close to 100% of the diaspora synagogue inscriptions are in Greek. In Judea, where the default language is Aramaic, 80% of synagogue inscriptions are in Greek.
Some have said the Deuterocanon was never written in Hebrew but the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) proved that to be false as at least 3 so far (Baruch, Sirach, and Tobit of the Deuterocanon), have been found within the DSS written in Hebrew, and using the word "recension" against them is a continual knee-jerk reaction to the Deuterocanon being written in Hebrew and thus a moving of the goal posts.
Concerning key messianic scriptures, Catholics, Copts, Orthodox, and Protestants see that the leaven of the rabbis and then later the Masoretes seemed to target scriptures that point to Jesus Christ. (Matthew 16:6).
The Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint all agree with each other against the MT far more than they disagree, thus the starting point is to sideline the MT in favor of the totality of the Septuagint, Paleo Hebrew, Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, Peshitta, Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and others which provide substantially older Old Testaments.
There are dozens and dozens of instances where the Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint agree against the MT: By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established. Deut. 19:15; 2 Cor. 13:1.
Given that Septuagint scrolls were found with Paleo Hebrew and Square Hebrew scrolls in the DSS, one would again be hard-pressed to prove that Christians composed the Septuagint and, as well, the Torah was translated into Greek from 283-246 BC under Ptolemy II Philadelphus and the prophets and writings within the next 100 years.
Septuagint Chronicles is quoted by Eupolemos in the middle of the 2nd century BC, and Septuagint Job by Pseudo-Aristeas in the beginning of the 1st century BC thus Christians and certainly not Origen created it. Furthermore...
The translation of Isaiah contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BCE" (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Emanuel Tov, p 131, 2012).
Septuagint fragments found at Qumran (Lev.), the Nahal Hever (Habbakuk, near Ein Gedi), dated 50 BC, Deut. fragments dates 2nd century BC.
Proseuche (forerunner to the synagogue) foundation stones in Egypt are dated 120 to 240 BC. If you gather in a church or synagogue, its origins are found in Hellenistic Egypt as they are foreign to temple-only thought. The synagogue ultimately spread to Israel along with the Septuagint (Theodotus inscription, in Greek, a synagogue in Jerusalem, 1st century AD).
Archaeological surveys "...of Palestinian synagogue inscriptions revealed that 67 were in Greek, 54 were in Aramaic and 14 in Hebrew. Most of the Greek inscriptions were found in the coastal and important inland cities." (Caesarea under Roman rule, Lee Levine).
Concerning archeological findings: the Delos synagogue dates to 250 BC and the Magdala synagogue: dates to 50 BC.
There was almost exclusive use of Greek in all synagogue inscriptions everywhere in the world.
Bkmk
Thumbs up: The Septuagint/Greek New Testament, Douay-Rheims, and the Peshitta all translated into English or whatnot.
Cool, yeah. Got it. And “ALMA” means virgin in Hebrew.
That’s the doctrine of antichrist coming from you.
Secondly, sure, we all know that men and women having relations the normal way would be a sign from God. /sarcsam.
And no, Isaiah wasn’t talking about Hezekiah either.
In the end, the Masoretic Text is just too corrupted to be trustworthy.
One of the more interesting discussions I have come across this year is a general skepticism over references to “The Septuagint”. Academicians I am familiar with avoid the use of the term Septuagint since it is an attempt to refer to a body of documents which purport to have come from Jewish scholars in Alexandria Egypt translated at a specific time. It turns out that there are wide disparities between Greek texts of O.T. books which are all ascribed to “The Septuagint”.
It is true that the New Testament writers used Greek texts for around two thirds of their quotations from the Old Testament. Thus, using Old Testament Greek texts is useful, but one must be wary of the conclusion that all ancient Old Testament Greek texts are uniform in content.
And thus the importance of the Dead Sea Scrolls as they are the most ancient source and overwhelmingly don’t agree with the Masoretic Text and specifically in key areas.
And there isn’t one “The Masoretic Text “ anyway.
Lastly, the MT texts all descend from corrupted texts so given this we have the far more reliable and ancient DSS, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Aramaic Targums, the Peshitta, the Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, etc, so no need for the MT.
Over the past weeks I have been reading some books on this very subject. Fascinating.
Indeed, quite fascinating.
The Septuagint can be found in numetous codices, not the least of which are the Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, Aexandrinus and others, all pretty much in agreement with each other, and all much older than the oldest Masoretic text of the many Masoretic texts.
Are you aware of any Paleo Hebrew for Psalm 40:6(7) that reads “a body you have prepared?” How much monkey business would attend to altering the characters to read, “my ears you have opened?” Hebrews 10:5 is the only reference to that phrase (”a body I have prepared”), so the surrounding verbiage must be what triggers a concern, since English translations differ so much at that point.
If the King James version was good enough for the Apostles and Paul, it’s good enough for me.
Have you looked?
Secondly, the compilers of the MT sadly targeted and removed or altered scriptures when God didn’t authorize it, as evidenced by far older Dead Sea Scrolls and numerous other older sources reveal this.
A virgin land -- "Mary"land, and Virginia.
The dove is a classic symbol for innocence and purity.
Columbia = "dove"
The Residence Act of 1790, officially titled An Act for establishing the temporary and permanent seat of the Government of the United States (1 Stat. 130), is a United States federal statute adopted during the second session of the First United States Congress and signed into law by President George Washington on July 16, 1790. The Act provides for a national capital and permanent seat of government to be established at a site along the Potomac River and empowered President Washington to appoint commissioners to oversee the project.
>>>
The Act specified that the laws of the state from which the area was ceded would apply in the federal district. Thus, Maryland laws applied on the eastern side of the Potomac, and Virginia laws applied on the western side in the District of Columbia until the government officially took residence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Progress
JerUSAlem of Gold, the "Star of the Empire".
If people knew where America was in Bible Prophecy, it would spoil the surprise.
What comes from the root of ALMA.
Why The Septuagint Is Superior To The Masoretic Text
"Seventy" in Greek [Ἑβδομήκοντα] = 570
Something got lost in translation.
That right there, that is funny.
And a young woman who is not a virgin giving birth is certainly so rare an occurrence we should look for it as a sign from God?
I have not looked. All I have is the MT and various translations onto English.
:)
The original 1611 King James Version contained the Deuterocanon and King James threatened anyone who dared to print the Bible without it with heavy fines and a year in jail.
Up until the late 1800’s every Protestant Bible (not just Catholic Bibles) had these books written hundreds of years before Christ called the Deuterocanon that were part of Wycliffe’s bible ( the original printing even commended the Book of Tobit) and part of virtually every printing of the Tyndale-Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible, the Protestant Geneva Bible, and the King James Bible, until their removal in the late 1800’s!
Only for the last 120 plus years have protestants rejected these books, and removed them from their Bibles. This has left most modern-day Christians believing the popular myth that there is something ‘Roman Catholic’ about it.
Numerous references to it in the margins (of books considered canonical) treating it the same as other Scripture:
● Matt. 6:7 references Ecclesiasticus 7:14
● Matt. 23:37 references 2 Esdras 1:30
● Matt. 27:43 references Wisdom 2:15-16
● Luke 6:31 references Tobit 4:16
● Luke 14:13 references Tobit 4:7
● John 10:22 references 1 Maccabees 4:59
● Rom. 9:21 references Wisdom 15:7
● Rom. 11:34 references Wisdom 9:13
● 2Cor. 9:7 references Ecclesiasticus 35:9
● Heb. 1:3 references Wisdom 7:26
● Heb. 11:35 references 2 Maccabees 7:7
● MATTHEW 27:43: He trusts in God; Let God Deliver Him now, if he desires him; for He Said, ‘I AM The Son Of God.’”
~OT Deuterocanonical “Wisdom Book” is Matthew’s source on the clear reference to “The Son of God” above.
WISDOM 2:15-16, 17-18: Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him in the end. 18 For if the righteous one is the Son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes.
~Whereas, Psalms 22 omits “Son of God”.
The Onlyists claim, ‘The King James translators knew the Apocrypha was not scripture, so they placed it BETWEEN the Old and New Testament...’ [James L. Melton, “Fables And Facts About The King James Bible”, Bible Baptist Church: Sharon, TN, 1996;
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/fables.html
But if they knew it was not Scripture, then why include it at all? And if there was nothing wrong with it, why take it out later? In contrast, most of the MODERN versions [NIV, NKJV, RSV, etc...] criticized by the KJV-Onlyists do not contain the Apocrypha at all... and never did!
There is no widely-accepted reason for the removal of the Apocrypha in the 1880s that has ever been officially issued by a mainline Protestant denomination.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history
I've known Square Hebrews, and I've known Jivin' Hebrews.
Butt seriously, as the Pamploma bull said...
There are two discussions going on here. The one we see in this thread is among the scholars and students, concerning which texts are the most reliable and why, of which there is a fair amount of understandable controversy.
The other, which is as significant in my own thinking, is the discussion between believers and skeptics. Skeptics love nothing better than to listen to the arguments among the "Bible people" about the Masoretic texts, and the Square Hebrew texts, and the Septuagint translation, and the Peshitta translation, and does the KJV capture the truth of history and prophecy, and does alma really mean virgin, and so on and so on and scooby dooby dooby...
Cause all it does is justify in their minds the unreliability of Scripture as an historical text, a prophetic text, and a divinely-inspired text. And our God-given commission is to bring as many everyday people to Christ as possible (whether "possible" means determinist or free will is irrelevant here), to get them past their skepticism to belief and confession (Romans 10:9), to get them heaven- rather than hellbound.
So how do we get past the scholarly controversies without discounting them, but recognizing that practically any of the above texts can bring people to Christ because it is the living Spirit that draws the unbeliever through the living Word?
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