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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I don’t try to read minds. When someone says “we don’t pray to Mary or the saints” I take them at their word. Especially when the statement was made in regard to the statement that they do pray to saints and Mary and ask for specific tasks be performed by those saints and Mary.


461 posted on 04/21/2015 4:12:25 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear; Eucharista; metmom
The CCC can be found on www.vatican.va so technically, there is no excuse for the level of ignorance displayed,

Oh, we find a lot of stuff there. Like how Catholics and Muslims have the same god.

And like how the creation days are viewed symbolically.

Too bad catholics don't seem to know the ccc as well as Christians do.

462 posted on 04/21/2015 4:14:03 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: af_vet_1981

Bottom line. The god that Muslims describe is NOT the God described in scripture. It’s a different god. If you believe you serve the same god just say so. I serve the God of scripture.


463 posted on 04/21/2015 4:16:23 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: ealgeone
Oh, we find a lot of stuff there. Like how Catholics and Muslims have the same god.

Does your religious community confess there is only one God, the God of Abraham ?

464 posted on 04/21/2015 4:20:16 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Elsie
At least I posted something!

There's that...

465 posted on 04/21/2015 4:22:12 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer; FateAmenableToChange
This discourse began with your statement:

>>The RCC has through history taught and then retracted several interpretations of scripture.<<

I asked you to cite examples of scripture that the Catholic Church retracted. You have posted general historical information about the Church, all of which are interesting but not the scriptural passages you assert the church has retracted. Can you please post these?

As catholics have told us so often, the Bible is not their final authority so we will "appeal" to their tradition where a number of doctrines have changed.

Prior to Vatican II all non-Catholic churchgoers will go to Hell.

That's a pretty big change.

466 posted on 04/21/2015 4:24:14 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: af_vet_1981

The God of Abraham is not the god of the Muslims. No, sir. Jehovah and Allah are not, nor have they ever been, nor will they ever be, the same.


467 posted on 04/21/2015 4:27:58 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: CynicalBear
Bottom line. The god that Muslims describe is NOT the God described in scripture. It’s a different god. If you believe you serve the same god just say so. I serve the God of scripture.

You miss the point, and the question. There is only one God, not two, not three, not many. I asked if you acknowledge the God of Abraham as the only one God. You answered that the Moslem description of God differs from yours. Do you apply the same standard to Jews who also believe there is only one God who is the Creator, the God of Abraham ?

468 posted on 04/21/2015 4:28:12 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: CynicalBear

Those are just prayers said to someone who is loved and honored very much for her unique role in salvation history. Why is that so repellant? Why is it so abhorrent to love Mary for her “yes”? To trust in her love for us that she will indeed pray for us when/if we “offer ourselves entirely” to her or “put all our hopes” in her.

Tell me something: do you honestly believe that any Catholic who prays those prayers does so in order to worship Mary like some kind of goddess? That our only desire when praying such prayers is to exalt her even above God? That our ultimate desire is NOT that we attain the Beatific Vision of God, face to face? These are yes or no questions.

Because I can tell you now that is NOT the motivation for any devotion to Mary (or any Saint). At least not the true Catholic reason. The true reason for such prayers and others similar is to gain the Beatific Vision through Mary’s intercessory prayer.

You would do yourself a favor to read this as well (it’s not that long just a page). http://archivio.traces-cl.com/otto01/ptn.htm

Then you will understand (if your heart truly desires the truth, not just to be “right”) what true devotion to Mary means.

Veni Sancte Spiritus. Veni per Mariam!


469 posted on 04/21/2015 4:35:14 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: ealgeone
The God of Abraham is not the god of the Muslims.

So you believe the God of Abraham is not the God of the Muslims. Do you believe the God of Abraham is the God of the Jews ?

470 posted on 04/21/2015 4:37:05 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: rwa265
Fortunately for Mrs. Don-o, what you seeth is not what God seeth. As the Lord said to Samuel: “the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.”

So it’s not what you or any other man thinks they see from outward appearance, it’s what God sees in our hearts.

I agree wholeheartedly with that...And yet,,,

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

When we see and hear you guys giving the glory of God to others by asking them to provide only what God can provide, and dedicate your lives to them (Mary) you reveal what's in your heart for all to see, not just God...

471 posted on 04/21/2015 4:43:12 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: CynicalBear
"God used Judas and Balaam's donkey to further His will also."

All men are flawed, even you. That is precisely why Jesus left us a Church with the Paraclete to guide it.

We do not have a doctrine of "Qadar" or "divine fore-ordainment" in Christian theology compelling sin. That is a Muslim concept. Judas' actions were not caused by God, He knew what they would be and He permitted the exercise of freewill to serve His plan for Salvation.

472 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: CynicalBear
"CCC 841..."I can see where you are trying to take this and why. You are looking to throw any of a hundred or so oft used criticism hoping one will stick and harm the Church....keep trying. Nothing has worked yet. Please remember that the word "Allah" is the Arabic word for God, not the name of God. If Faith alone saved, the Muslims would be saved.

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. - Nostra Aetate 3

473 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: CynicalBear
"Do those who have left this world get their rewards prior to the resurrection?"

Is this a trick question or do you really believe that Salvation is a reward and not an unmerited gift?

474 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: smvoice
"And this here is where the RCC collapses."

You had better hope you are right because you have bet eternity on your own very limited powers of interpretation and discernment.

475 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: af_vet_1981

Brilliant!


476 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: CynicalBear
"St. Ignatius of Antioch is responsible for the first known use of the Greek words katholikós..."

The term evolved to from the combination of the prepositional phrase "Kath oles" (throughout all) and the word used for the organized, structured Church (ekklesia) such that by 109 AD when St. Ignatius used the term it needed no definition or explanation meaning that it was already well known and understood by the recipients of his letters.

(And for the record I betting there are a lot of things you haven't seen).

477 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: Iscool
"When we see and hear you guys praying to Saints and Mary to give you things only God can provide, we know you are worshiping regardless of how you spin it..."

And that is exactly why God didn't leave it up to you.

478 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: Iscool
"And let me remind you, neither of them spoke to the Apostles..."

Ad that is a spin worthy of professional bowling.....

I specifically said that two supposedly "dead" people spoke to Jesus who was fully present in human form such that the Apostles witnessed it. You did not address that.

479 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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To: ealgeone
"Like how Catholics and Muslims have the same god."

How many Gods do you think there are?

"And like how the creation days are viewed symbolically."

Please provide a citation because that is not Church teaching.

"Too bad catholics don't seem to know the ccc as well as Christians do."

A Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Jesus. The Prologue of the Catechism, the very first line is: PROLOGUE "FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" - than the name of JESUS."

(Please refrain from bluffing with respect to knowing Catholic teaching. I am a certified Catechist by the Church. I will call you on it every time you try it.)

480 posted on 04/21/2015 4:48:45 PM PDT by Eucharista
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