Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

[NYer]

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)

1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,

And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)

2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:

In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).

Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:

For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.

Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:

Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.

But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)

3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:

So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 

Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):

But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!

[Eucharista]

"Again, this is why Christianity rejects roman catholic "tradition" on this topic and many others."

Christianity does not reject Catholic Tradition, heresy rejects it. Catholicism is, was and will remain the one, holy and apostolic Church from which all others split. The Church was first called Catholic in Acts 9:31 (ekklesia kath oles) before it was even called Christian in Acts 11:26.

[CynicalBear]

>>The criticism in the discussion was specifically directed at prayer practices that are exclusively Catholic.<<

Like Catholics dedicating themselves to Mary rather than Christ?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Well, nobody has a right to "order" miracles. They are gratuitous acts of God, not produced on demand, and by no means, as you seem to suppose, a clerical monopoly. And you're saying that if they aren't done by bishops, they're not worth your investigation? Really?

This is the first time I've ever heard of the Boogieman Miracle Criteria. An innovative interpretation, to say the least.

St. Catherine of Siena, pray for us.

[ealgeone]

We'd have to go through the quotes one by one, which I don't have time to do right now, though if you would want to take it up later, go ahead and send me some.

In other words....you cannot refute any of these postings and are now trying to hide behind obfuscation.

Anything that suggests that Mary is equal to, or even greater than God, would be seriously objectionable.

We constantly seek for help from Heaven - the sole means of effecting anything - that our labours and our care may obtain their wished for object. We deem that there could be no surer and more efficacious means to this end than by religion and piety to obtain the favour of the great Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven, in order that she may bestow the help of her patronage on men who through so many labours and dangers are striving to reach that eternal city. …..showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice, put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God. SUPREMI APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIIION DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY

>"Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo XIII, 1903-1914)

For instance, here on the Religion Forum awhile back, somebody was quoted as saying that it's better to pray to Mary than to Jesus, because her answers are surer and quicker. I think that's heretical. It's certainly not a doctrine of the Church.

According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173

Eadmer must also be credited with being one of the first serious proponents of the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary when he defended popular traditions in his De Conceptione sanctae Mariae.

Poetic titles would include most everything that's in the Litany of Loreto, which are very beautiful and which are understood metaphorically.

Mrs. Don-o....you seem like a nice person. This comment of yours however doesn't pass the smell test and I think you know it. Too many catholic websites employ these titles. The telling fact is that the Vatican has not disavowed any of these titles....a de facto approval.

You're doing your dead level best to deny that your "church" teaches and condones the worship of Mary. In fact, the roman catholic church has elevated Mary to such a level of importance that there's no way they could ever back off without losing total credibility amongst catholics.

[CynicalBear]

>>The prayers to the Saints are simply requests for them to intercede on our behalf, no less “un-Scriptual” than asking someone on Earth to pray for us.<<

Oh really?

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own, keep me, guard
me as thy property and possession.
Amen. [http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm]

Interceding on your behalf ey?

I love thee, most lovable Lady, By the love which I bear
thee, I promise ever to serve thee,
and to do as much as I can, that thou be loved by others also.
I put all my hopes in thee, all my salvation.
Receive me as thy servant and cover me with the mantle of thy protection, thou the Mother of mercy!
Amen. [http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm]

Tell us again how Catholics only ask them to pray for them like we would ask our friends.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Well, I acknowledge that you were able to find Catholic FReepers out there who said we don't pray "to" saints. But they meant "to saints as if they were independent operators," which seems pretty clear to me from the context.

But why don't you ask them? They would not deny that we "pray to" (address) saints if it's made clear that this is only "in Christ" and "predicated on Christ" and "dependent as members of the Body of Christ"---

But ask them and see what they think.

[CynicalBear]

>>You have the Gospel today only through the actions of the Catholic Church.<<

God used Judas and Balaam's donkey to further His will also.

[Boogieman]

Nope, you are misunderstanding me again. I really tire of having to keep explaining my points to you over and over because you misconstrue them. Are you doing it deliberately?

Let’s try again. Your bishops claim to be successors to the apostles, and claim the authority of that office. The office of apostle carried with it certain gifts, namely the ability to perform all manner of miracles, even raising the dead. If they truly hold such an office, then they must also possess those gifts. If there is no evidence that they do, then they have impeached their own testimony, and I really don’t need to bother delving in to the rest of your church’s claims of miracles, because they would have already failed the most basic test I can imagine.

Similarly, take for example, David Koresh, who claimed to be the second coming of Christ. If that were really true, he would not have been able to be killed by mortal men. Since he was, he impeached his own testimony and I don’t need to investigate the rest of his claims before I conclude they are likely a bunch of hogwash.

[metmom]

What goes around, comes around.

Don’t dish it out if you can’t take.

[CynicalBear]

>>The CCC can be found on www.vatican.va so technically, there is no excuse for the level of ignorance displayed.<

Oh, we find a lot of stuff there. Like how Catholics and Muslims have the same god.

CCC 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

[smvoice]

Very interesting post here. The RCC is NOT the church Christ founded. period. The church Jesus founded was The Kingdom Church, made up of "the nation (SINGULAR) bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 2:43). This NATION consisted of the Apostles and the "little flock" of Christ's followers. (Luke 12:32). And who were the leaders of this Kingdom Church? Matt. 19:28 makes it clear that it was to be centralized in the 12 apostles.

Which is what the book of Acts is about from Chapter 1 through Chapter 8. And what happened to that Kingdom Church? Acts 28 tells us. It was set aside, Israel was set aside, and the Kingdom Church was postponed until Israel comes to Christ, the tribulation.

So where are WE, the Gentiles, in this story? Acts 9 and forward through Romans through Philemon tells us. We are the Church the Body of Christ. NOT made up of a NATION, but made up of believers who are neither Jew nor Gentile in God's eye, but a new man, save by the blood of Christ and God's grace. Ours is a heavenly inheritance, hid in God BEFORE the foundation of the earth, as opposed to the Kingdom Church and Israel whose inheritance is earthly, PROPHESIED SINCE the world began.

SO...how can we tell this is the order of our history, the Body of Christ?

Galatians 2:2,9. "And I went up by revelation (to Jerusalem) and communicated unto them THAT GOSPEL which I PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain."

"And when JAMES, CEPHAS< and JOHN, who seemed to be pillars, PERCEIVED THE GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME, they GAVE TO ME and BARNABAS the right hands of fellowship; THAT WE SHOULD GO UNTO THE HEATHEN, AND THEY UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION."

So what does that mean? It means that Peter and the 11, by a solemn agreement, who had originally been sent into "ALL THE WORLD" and to "EVERY CREATURE", now promised to CONFINE THEIR MINISTRY TO ISRAEL WHILE PAUL WENT TO THE GENTILES.

Were these leaders out of the will of God in making this agreement? NO! They LOOSED THEMSELVES from the "Great Commission" given to them by Christ. And what they loosed on earth was loosed in heaven. And they were very much in the will of GOd, both in loosing themselves from their commission to evangelize the world and in agreeing that Paul should go to the Gentiles, for Israel's rejection of Christ had brought about a change in the prophetic program.

And this here is where the RCC collapses. By their own arguments there can be no apostolic succession, for by the authority given Peter and the 11, they LOOSED THEMSELVES from their obligation to carry out the "great commission" to its completion and recognized Paul as the apostle of the dispensation of the grace of God. "Prophecy" gave way to "the mystery" of God's purpose and grace. AMEN.

[CynicalBear]

>>Why do you presume that the spirit world and heaven are constrained by the properties of the material world such as time and space?<<

Um.....what? What does that have to do with the topic of the post?

I'll ask you the same question. Do those who have left this world get their rewards prior to the resurrection?

[af_vet_1981]

Oh, we find a lot of stuff there. Like how Catholics and Muslims have the same god.

CCC 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

There is only one God; do you also acknowledge the God of Abraham is the only one God ? The Moslems do, albeit in serious error, as contrasted with the Athenians who did not know there is only one God for all men, who is the God of Abraham.

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Acts, Catholic chapter seventeen, Protestant verses twenty two to twenty eight,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[Iscool]

First, the factual: “Popes do nothing about those that [rape]” -— is a misdirected calumny. You can’t name a Pope who did “nothing” about these vile sins;

Well then it's so little it's not worth mentioning...

(1) alcoholics are not to be “abhorred,” they are our brothers, sisters, parents, spouses, who are to be loved and helped. I deplore alcoholism. I detest drunkenness. And I love a fair number of alcoholics. Plus...

I didn't say I did...I said IF I did...And you know the issue wasn't alcoholics...

Just a lot of rhetoric

Again, misdirected. Catholics do NOT condemn praying to Mary (as you know!)

We know that's not true...You know that's not true...You were given a link to a thread where one of your very own claims Catholics do not pray to Mary...So that's the end of that conversation...

we pray to (meaning, in Christ we are in living contact with) literally thousands of holy servants of God, saints and fellow-believers on this earth and saints in heaven, including the Holy Angels -— because we worship God along with them

When we see and hear you guys praying to Saints and Mary to give you things only God can provide, we know you are worshiping regardless of how you spin it...

[CynicalBear]

>>The Church was first called Catholic in Acts 9:31 (ekklesia kath oles) before it was even called Christian in Acts 11:26.<<

Now there's a stretch I haven't seen before. "throughout all of Jedea" now somehow translates to "catholic"?

St. Ignatius of Antioch is responsible for the first known use of the Greek words katholikós (καθολικός in masculine) and katholikí ( καθολική in femenine) which mean universal, "complete" and "whole" to describe the church, writing: [http://www.socialphy.com/posts/news-politics/28716/Origin-of-the-word-Catholic_.html]

[CynicalBear]

>>It is not unlike asking your wife to iron your shirt before you go to church.<<

Dedicating yourselves to Mary is like me asking my wife to iron my shirt? Do you think people are really stupid or what?

[NYer]

This discourse began with your statement:

The RCC has through history taught and then retracted several interpretations of scripture.

I asked you to cite examples of scripture that the Catholic Church retracted. You have posted general historical information about the Church, all of which are interesting but not the scriptural passages you assert the church has retracted. Can you please post these?

[Iscool]

I remind you that at Jesus’ Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1–9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28–36 and 2 Peter 1:16–18) both Moses and Elijah appeared to and spoke with the human nature of Jesus.

I wouldn't count on it...

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

And let me remind you, neither of them spoke to the Apostles...So there goes your proof texts right out the window...

Yours is a particularly adversarial tone that I find incompatible with a discussion of God.

Guess that's my nature...However it does disgust me when I see people perverting the scriptures to try and prove and justify their false religion...