Posted on 04/24/2012 1:28:27 PM PDT by Jeff Head
As I stood in front of the new Mormon Temple in Liberty, Mo., it struck me as ironic that close to 175 years ago, Mormons were forced out of this same state.
Whereas the Missouri public once urged their governor to force Joseph Smith and his followers out of the area surrounding Kansas City, Mormons began to return to the region in the 1900s, eventually gathering in such large numbers that the Church organization decided the region needed a temple.
Which is why I came to visit.
Latter Day Saints restrict temple access to members of their denomination who have proven themselves to be faithful and dedicated adherents. Because Mormons believe temples are the most sacred places on earth, one needs to be prepared to enter them by being an active member of the Church. (In contrast, chapels, where Mormons hold Sunday worship, are open to everyone. Temples are used only for certain rituals and are not open on Sunday so that Mormons can be at their chapel services.)
When a new temple is built, anyone may enter prior to its dedication. So, always curious to learn about the faith of others, I didn't want to miss an opportunity to see a site normally closed off to an Episcopal priest like myself.
My visit seemed all the more timely because Mormons have been in the news a lot lately, and so have their temples. Elizabeth Smart recently married her husband in a temple in Hawaii during a ceremony called a sealing, in which the couple and close Mormon friends and family gather together to witness God joining the couple together for time and all eternity. In less complimentary news, Elie Wiesel took Mitt Romney to task for his faith's practice of baptisms of the dead, which also take places within temple walls.
These headlines, in addition to my own curiosity, motivated my visit to the new temple in Kansas City, and with my curiosity came some questions:
What does a Mormon temple look like, and what happens inside it?
Would I feel God's presence in this space, even though it's not a space that's sacred for me?
Before I go any further -- and because I know it's the question at the front of your mind, dear reader -- no one tried to convert me. In fact, everyone was very welcoming. Members volunteered en masse, clad in pressed suits and dresses. They offered guided tours, bent down to put protective boots onto my feet so my shoes wouldn't dirty the carpeting, and offered me a chewy snickerdoodle at the end of the tour. They showed me every space from changing rooms to sealing rooms where marriages take place and answered every question I asked, no matter how challenging or controversial.
And in the end, yes, I did have a God moment.
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
Mormons go to temples to be close to God. Much like the ancient Jewish people believed God lived at the heart of the temple in Jerusalem, Mormons believe that followers can meet God most intimately in the temple. The reasons they visit temples vary: In addition to having their marriages sealed in the temple, Mormons also have sealing ceremonies that unite parents and children for time and all eternity. Others come to participate in baptisms of the dead, which are intended to be used only for deceased family members of active Mormons, though the Church acknowledged in the wake of Elie Wiesel's comments that others -- such as Anne Frank -- have had baptisms performed on their behalf. These baptisms are not intended to convert the deceased but rather to give them a choice in the afterlife to embrace the revelation of Mormonism: Assuming an afterlife exists, the baptized deceased are free to say yes or no as they please. Finally, Mormons come to the temple to receive their endowment, a ritual ceremony where followers make promises to God and receive knowledge about God.
Unlike a cathedral, which is primarily composed of one large worship space, a Mormon temple has a variety of smaller rooms that serve different purposes. There are sealing rooms and rooms for men and women to change into white clothes (every male or female Mormon who enters a dedicated temple wears the same white clothing) and instruction rooms where individuals learn about God in preparation for receiving their endowments.
It was in these rooms, and the final Celestial Room, where I caught a glimpse of God.
You see, as part of our final stop on the tour, our guide took us to a room with a mural of the Missouri countryside painted by a local artist. The room had earthy colors, browns and greens and rows of cushioned seats. This was the first instruction room. From there, we took a step up -- as if ascending closer to heaven -- and entered a second room, similar to the first in shape and size but all white. This was the second instruction room. When we left that room, we took another step up and entered the Celestial Room, a space designed to give those who sit in it a foretaste of heaven.
It was a simple room yet ornate at the same time, all white with sparkling crystal chandeliers, large mirrors, and plump sofas and chairs reminiscent of those that must have existed in Joseph Smith's day. Our guide asked us to be silent and said we were welcome to sit wherever we liked and take a moment to pray. So I sat down on a sofa that seemed to envelop me, folded my hands on my lap and closed my eyes.
Like Dante, who saw God face to face but had no words to describe the encounter, I have few words to describe what I felt in that moment. But I can say this: While it did not convert me, nor did it make me want to be a Mormon, the silence and peace I felt reminded me of the many other times I've felt close to God, whether in an Episcopal cathedral, in a clear, warm ocean or in my ratty old car. And because of that, I came to understand why temples exist and why they are so important to Mormons across the world.
And along the lines of Mormons being across the world: As I wrote earlier, Mormons were ironically driven out of Liberty, Missouri and the surrounding region nearly 175 years ago. It cannot be lost on those who visit the new temple that almost two centuries later, Mormons are often still held in suspicion by society, but they are far from being as vulnerable as they were in their early years. They are building stronger foundations every day, and striving, as they do so, to catch a glimpse of heaven.
Does this then show you the believers intended to go home?
Acts ch 2 V 41Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church—about three thousand in all. 42They joined with the other believers and devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, sharing in the Lord’s Supper and in prayer. 43A deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. 44And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had. 45They sold their possessions and shared the proceeds with those in need. 46They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity—47all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved..
Onward to Acts Ch 4
v 32All the believers were of one heart and mind, and they felt that what they owned was not their own; they shared everything they had. 33And the apostles gave powerful witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and God’s great favor was upon them all. 34There was no poverty among them, because people who owned land or houses sold them 35and brought the money to the apostles to give to others in need. 36For instance, there was Joseph, the one the apostles nicknamed Barnabas (which means “Son of Encouragement”). He was from the tribe of Levi and came from the island of Cyprus. 37He sold a field he owned and brought the money to the apostles for those in need.
Now lets go to Acts chapter six and see what happened.
1But as the believers£ rapidly multiplied, there were rumblings of discontent. Those who spoke Greek complained against those who spoke Hebrew, saying that their widows were being discriminated against in the daily distribution of food. 2So the Twelve called a meeting of all the believers. “We apostles should spend our time preaching and teaching the word of God, not administering a food program,” they said. 3“Now look around among yourselves, brothers, and select seven men who are well respected and are full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. We will put them in charge of this business. 4Then we can spend our time in prayer and preaching and teaching the word.” 5This idea pleased the whole group, and they chose the following: Stephen (a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit), Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas of Antioch (a Gentile convert to the Jewish faith, who had now become a Christian). 6These seven were presented to the apostles, who prayed for them as they laid their hands on them. 7God’s message was preached in ever-widening circles. The number of believers greatly increased in Jerusalem, and many of the Jewish priests were converted, too.
Then came Stephens arrest. They had not as of yet actually left Jerusalem in the sense we see after Stephens death.
And NO WHERE does it indicate that the persecution was the result of the Holy Spirit punishing the believers for not going out. Further, there is every reason to believe that others remained with the Apostles. So? The word was already moving out since Pentecost. The bible in no place links that persecution to chastisement from the Spirit.
The Bible does link it the persecution too the spreading of The Gospel
How long were the Disciples told to remain in Jerusalem? Acts ch 1 holds the answer.
1Dear Theophilus: In my first book£ I told you about everything Jesus began to do and teach 2until the day he ascended to heaven after giving his chosen apostles further instructions from the Holy Spirit. 3During the forty days after his crucifixion, he appeared to the apostles from time to time and proved to them in many ways that he was actually alive. On these occasions he talked to them about the Kingdom of God. 4In one of these meetings as he was eating a meal with them, he told them, “Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you what he promised. Remember, I have told you about this before. 5John baptized with£ water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” The Ascension of Jesus 6When the apostles were with Jesus, they kept asking him, “Lord, are you going to free Israel now and restore our kingdom?” 7“The Father sets those dates,” he replied, “and they are not for you to know.
8But when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, you will receive power and will tell people about me everywhere—in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
I do not know the full reason for the persecution except it is foretold the believers were to be scattered. Staying in Jerusalem after Pentecost was not the instruction given.
My power went out last year for no obvious reason {common occurance on my road}. I usually call my neighbor and if theirs is out also I know it's the fuse at the tap off for our road. This time no one was home. I called the utility and the guy told me only my house was out. They came out and the fuse to my transformer on the pole had fallen out. The fact he couldn't ping my meter base let them know where to look. They also read the meter in the same manner.
Interesting....
Where you are living reminds me of the log cabin we had when our kids were growing up. We used it as a getaway place, up on the mountain and way back off even the gravel roads.
Two roads before you would arrive at our place the road was like an old covered wagon trail. Grass growing in the center ha! But we loved it there. We did however have a well there and electricity as it’s location ran close to the main electrical grid on the mountain.
I miss going there a great deal. I loved the seclusion and the fun of watching various critters walk thru the yard. Even bears!
The terrain of my land is a big factor. I use Direct TV for our TV mainly for my wife. I’m about 20 miles north of Knoxville. But I’m on the north side of a high ridge I own. At the botom of the ridge on the main road is civilization LOL. This time of year I can’t even see my neighbors houses.
The cheapest satellite internet is going to run you about $50 bucks a month from HughesNet. Otherwise, sounds like its modem coverage.
Up until about 4 years ago, we were modem too and they finally got decent, affordable coverage here in this small Idaho town.
Sounds great there! I was born and raised in the hills of Pa. in a small valley community, about an hour from the city. It was a big deal to go into the city at that time. I still love my hometime...especially now it’s been all built up so beautifully with Marcellous Shale ‘big’ in the area. The whole town has benifited wonderfully.
Yea I know. I can't meet their reception requirements without bringing in a dozer and taking out a bunch of trees. Ridges in East Tennessee run Northeast by Southwest. Southwest is up behind me and blocked.
Since when has vociferously addressing open idolatry become such a taboo topic? (Especially when it's imported by the idolaters into the political arena)
Jefferson may have at times treated authority like he was God -- snipping out the supernatural elements of his "Jefferson Bible" -- but I don't think he attempted to export to the world that he was indeed an out-and-out rival to THE true and living God.
Can temple Mormons like Romney claim the same?
May I remind you exactly what the Mormon church has been teaching on this...during the years when Romney was age 22 -- the year he first entered BYU -- into his 30s & beyond???
Many people know of Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th "prophet" of the Lds church (1973-1985), as the man who allowed blacks to become Mormon priests in 1978.
But did you know Mormonism teaches you are all "gods in embryo"???(And Kimball was one of its key proponents)
Did you know that Mormonism teaches the false "gospel" of self-transformation -- of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps to become a god? (And Kimball was one of its key proponents)
Spencer W. Kimball on these very topics:
1969 "Being a god in embryo with the seeds of godhood neatly tucked away in him, and with the power to become a god eventually, man need not despair...he must...transform himself..." (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 173-174)
A couple he was advising in Kimball's office "did not understand that forgiveness is not a thing of days or months or even years but is a matter of intensity of feeling and transformation of self...This couple seemed to have no conception of satisfying the Lord, of paying the total penalties and obtaining a release..." (Ibid, p. 156)
To Kimball, you had to "pay the total penalties" for your sin -- vs. that being a role occupied by the true Jesus Christ.
September, 1974: Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility. Source: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6057 (Spencer W. Kimball speech entitled Be Ye Therefore Perfect 9/17/74 devotional address @ BYU)
1975: Man is created in the image of God. He is a god in embryo. He has the seeds of godhood within him, and he can, if he is normal, pick himself up by his bootstraps and literally move himself from where he is to where he shows he should be." Source: http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/LovevsLust.pdf, "Love vs. Lust," Spencer W. Kimball, Provo: BYU Publications, 1975
November 1977: Self-mastery, then, is the key, and every person should study his own life, his own desires and wants and cravings, and bring them under control. Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility. To be perfect, one can turn to many areas as a starting place....As we have stated before, the way to perfection seems to be a changing of one’s life—to substitute the good for the evil in every case. Source: By President Spencer W. Kimball An address given to students of Weber State College, Ogden, Utah on 4 November 1977 http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=244ed0640b96b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
July, 1978 Ensign Magazine: Lds church officially endorses Kimball Weber State College comments by publishing them in their official magazine
This quote also becomes part of Chapter 19 of what Lds officially teach college students in their Institute curricula: See http://institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/doc-gosp-11-20-19.asp
I have similar quotes from Lds professor-editors @ BYU -- men who taught @ BYU the same years Romney attended (1969-1971).
Well, it is one way to go...but any way you go there are give and takes involved.
Hey, did you see this today?
Oklahoma Fights Back
http://www.jeffhead.com/okla.htm
I was raised out in the country, buckin hay in my early years on our ranch, not far south of the Red River and the Oklahoma line.
Hehehe...despite all the competitiveness, people on eiother side of that lione for the most part had the same accent, had the same sun tans, wnet to the same churches, and all loved America and worked hard as I grew up there.
What they are doing now is great and based on the 10th amendment.
I did notice that the labor department has blinked today and pulled back the rediculous, tyranical rules they were wanting to apply to family farms and the kids working on it.
They may pull it back now because it was raising such a furor...but it is a window into their souls, and should this Obamanation be re-elected, watch for it to come back in spades.
And yet a few years back...when I went into an LDS bookstore & thumbed thru a thick, extensive book on the history of church/religious temples, there was nary a mention of this reference from the two Corinthian letters that you cite here...
IOW, what better evidence exists than to Mormons -- the writer/researchers of that book and the Mormon bookstore people who distributed it -- the only significant temples are those built not by God, but by man.
I knew Spencer Kimball, and what you read is out of context.
Yes, the Church believes man, as children of God in Heaven (just as Paul teaches in Romans) can become perfect, even as God in Heaven is perfect, just like Christ taught in Matthew.
But the Church teaches, and I know personally that Spencer Kimball taught that the only way possible for us to “pull ourselves up” was through accepting and having the Atonement of Jesus Christ made effective in our life.
His book, “The Miracle of Forgiveness,” is an excellent explanation of how he felt.
Sorry...but the endless cut and pastes are presented to paint the picture you want painted of the LDS...not what is actually believed or taught.
We have been around and around on thios so many times...as I stated earlier on this thread.
The Witness of Christ Jesus stands...despite whatever mortal weaknesses we as huimans (all of us) may have.
No sense in rehashing this futher. I will leave it at that.
(Well, let us know when Jefferson's spirit starts showing up in the Mormon St. George temple just like the Signers of the Declaration of Independence supposedly did -- to declare his (R) candidacy & we'll at least sift thru whether this is really Jefferson's spirit wanting an extra White House term...or a masquerading demon ...see Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity] ... Until then, somehow his anti-supernatural Bible isn't quite as politically relevant re: vetting)
Oh, and btw, since we have these "spirits" conversing with Lds "prophets" -- like Lds to be "prophet" Wilford Woodruff...upon what grounds do Mormons claim that demonic spirits wouldn't similarly masqueradingly appear to the current or next Lds "prophet" to convey/command something to a White House sitting president?
Oh, good ole apologist Jeff Head, perhaps still wishing that so many Lds general authorities -- each with more Lds church authority in a cut-off toenail than Jeff ever had in his entire lifetime -- haven't gone on record declaring the following...[see also next post as well]:
What have Mormon leaders said about these supposedly "unofficial" Journal of Discourse messages from Mormonism's "General Authorities?"
(1) Who authorized Watt to record the Journal of Discourses? (Brigham Young)
Who ranks highest in the Mormon church to carry out what he assigns? (The "prophet")
So when grassroots Mormons tell us to disregard the "Journal of Discourses" as unofficial, consider this: Who ranks higher, grassroots Mormons? -- Or, an Lds apostle? What did Lds apostle Franklin D. Richards in the JoD preface of vol. 2 reference the JoD as?
The Second Volume of the Journal of Discources needs no recommendation to make it interesting to every Saint who loves to drink of the streams that flow from the fountain of Eternal Truth.
Also...who ranks higher grassroots Mormons? Or, a member of the First Presidency who served in such a role to four different Lds “prophets?” What did this First Presidency official reference the JoD as?
The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every Number as it comes forth from the press..." (President George Q. Cannon, JoD, preface, Vol. 8)
What about Lds leaders within our lifetime? What have Lds leaders said about the JoD?
Well, on March 21, 1963, the Deseret News ran an ad from Lds church leadership about the JoD. The ad read: Every Latter-day Saint should take this opportunity of owning the written words of remarkable teachings from the LDS pulpit. To the clear and vigorous exposition of Latter-day Saint doctrine is added the unmistakable authority of divine inspiration."
What more can we get from leaders re: the JoD? Here church leaders were sqawking that the JoD is...
..."from the LDS pulpit..."
...exposes "Latter-day Saint doctrine" clearly & vigorously...
...presented with "divine inspiration...authority" -- and there's no mistake ("unmistakable" about that)
So, e'en tho many grassroots Mormons will indicate these "Lds leaders" are mistaken re: their assessments of the JoD, note that...
...Three months after that ad appeared in the Deseret News, the assistant manager of the DesNews, Axel J. Andresen, wrote a letter about the JoD to a Mr. H.C. Combes dated June 12, 1963. In a few excerpts from that letter, Mr. Andresen said:
"...the 26 volumes of the 'JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES,'...If anyone tells you that the sermons found therein are not recognized by the Church, they know not what they are talking about. I am sure that the individual is not anyone in authority -- certainly not among the General Authorities...May we also assure you that Deseret Book Company, being the only Church-owned book store, would not distribute literature on the Church, particularly anything as important as the Discourses of the Presidents and Apostles of the Church, without the approval of the Church..."
ALL: This DesNews Asst Mgr says before contemporary Mormons even opened their mouths on this subject, that they "know not what" you "are talking about."
Post #2 on 'What is 'OFFICIAL' Lds authoritative teaching':
Yes ole apologist Jeff Head, perhaps still wishing that so many Lds general authorities -- each with more Lds church authority in a cut-off toenail than Jeff ever had in his entire lifetime -- haven't gone on record declaring the following...
You see, Jeff Head in some way or another supports Brigham Young University...so named after a certain "prophet" by the same name...And what did ole Brigham declare on this matter?
“…Brigham Young has said ‘when he sends forth his discourses to the world they may call them Scripture.’ I say now, when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible…” (Oct. 6, 1870, Journal of Discourses 13:264)
“What is Scripture? When one of the brethren stands before a congregation of the people today, and the inspiration of the Lord is upon him, he speaks that which the Lord would have him speak. It is just as much scripture as anything you will find written in any of these records, and yet we call these the standard works of the church.” (Lds “prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, 1:186)
“There is scripture other than the standard works. Some people get the idea that the only scripture we have in the Church today is that which is contained in the four standard Church works. Now, the Lord in a revelation has spoken of something else defined scripture. [Then cites D&C 68:2-4].” (The Teachings of [Lds "prophet" Harold B. Lee, p. 148)
“The Lord has told us by revelation to speak as we may be moved upon by the Holy Ghost. When a man speaks as he is moved upon by the Holy Spirit what he says ins the word of the Lord; it is the mind of the Lord, it is scripture, it is the will of the Lord…” ( Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff, Sept. 1, 1899, Collected discourses, 1:340-341)
“…I submit that whatever comes from the voices of those who hold the authority is scripture, no matter of what they may speak.” (Of the First Presidency, J. Reuben Clark, Jr. Conference Report, April, 1944, p. 112)
“Anything and everything that affects the well-being of us Latter-day Saints or that has to do with our religion, may become part of that scripture, and when the servants of God speak to us about such things, speaking under the inspiration of the Lord, then their words become scripture.” (Ibid)
“…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet,” 1980 devotional speeches of the year (Provo, 1981)
“Talk about revelation! You go and read the sermons of President Young, and if you do not believe now that he was a Prophet, I think after you have read them you will be sure he was…” (Cannon, Gospel Truth: Discourses & Writings of President George Q. Cannon 1:155)
“…their [Prophets’] discourses to the Saints, and their official writings should be considered products of their official prophetic calling and should be heeded.” (Church manual: Teachings of the Living Prophets, 1982, p. 21)
“The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.” (Gen Conf Oct. 1960, p. 78)
Hinckley & many other lds leaders said same thing (Hinckley said it in ’92)
Besides, Lds ensign magazine has told us that eternal principles never change;
current Lds "prophet" Monson has told Mormons that doctrine is constant;
Other members of the past Lds first presidencies have assured us that doctrine can’t be changed, modified, or abrogated, and that doctrine is fixed and unchangeable, that principles/doctrines are eternal;
BYU prof Millet has told us the doctrine of Jesus Christ is the same
And, as indicated in my previous post, even sources like the Journal of Discourses is according to one Lds apostle, “eternal truth”; another past member of the First Presidency told us the JoD deservedly ranks as a “standard work”
Jeff Head would have you believe that ALL -- count 'em all -- these "prophets" and First Presidents (top three hierarchists in the church) I've cited on this and my previous post -- that ALL of them through ALL these decades...are either wrong, misguided, mistaken, or falsely prophesied...and that Jeff alone is right...
Well, perhaps we can agree they are all false prophets, after all...
Jeff, I own that book by Kimball you reference -- THE Miracle of Forgiveness -- and I've read it..keep reading for two references from that book below re: "how Kimball felt":
So first -- by way of introduction -- What does Mormon doctrine say? "Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved." (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 132:32)
The Bible says that Abraham was saved by faith (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:2-3) -- not by following a law that had yet to be introduced to anyone of his generation. Rom. 3:20 very specifically says the purpose of the law was to gain knowledge of sin -- not to find salvation. In fact, that verse makes it quite clear that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Mormonism declares the primary impetus for God's forgiveness isn't based upon His grace & mercy, but rather upon living his commandments (legalism):
"To make our repentance complete we must always keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32). A person is not fully repentant who does not pay this tithes or does not keep the Sabbath day holy or refuses to obey the Word of Wisdom. He is not repentant if he does not sustain the authorities of the Church and does not love the Lord or his fellowmen. A man who fails to have his family prayers and who is unkind to his family and others is surely not repentant...President [Spencer W.] Kimball said...spend the balance of your lives trying to live the commandments of the Lord so he can eventually pardon you and cleanse you." (Lds church, Gospel Principles, p. 120-122, citing Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 200)
The Lds church has it backwards. We are forgiven & cleansed; and therefore God works through us to assist us in good works and pure living. Whereas the Mormon church ey thinks you have to engage in commandment-obedience so that God will eventually pardon & cleanse us. (That's legalism)
Past "prophets" like Spencer W. Kimball & others then stress that you have to earn forgiveness -- Kimball even had a chapter in that book entitled, "Keeping God's Commandments Brings Forgiveness."
Therefore: The official Mormon church clear teaching here is that you MUST FIRST EARN forgiveness by ALWAYS living/keeping the commandments -- and THEN God might "eventually" forgive. How foreign to the true gospel -- where God forgives you NOT on the basis of your obedience level, but due to His own graciousness and mercy revealed in the Person of His Son dying on the cross for our sin.
I'll tell you what. I've been to quite a few places in my lifetime both in the U.S. {48 states all but Maine and Hawaii}, South America, and the MED Sea area Egypt, Spain, Italy, Yugoslavia, and France plus likely more. Talk about temples have you ever been inside this one? It's quite an impressive sight to see. Lot's of persons today forget their bodies are the temples in which their spirit dwells on this earth.
Yet we are free to forgive someone even whom can not pay for their wrong or debt. We are also free but not obligated to forgive those who have not asked for it. It is better we do so really. Forgiveness of others is for our own sake and well being. Hanging on to a grudge which has been asked to be forgiven is like a cancer and it festers and takes over.
Did the men the Romans who placed Christ on the cross ask forgiveness? Did the Jewish leaders who demanded his death? Yet to fulfill all righteousness while dieing on the cross Jesus said, “Father, forgive these people, because they don’t know what they are doing.” He forgave them tho they did not ask forgiveness.
Look I know of persons ministries some call them almost heretics because they are not the ones the minister is trying to reach. Case in point Joyce Myers. That name should stir a hornets nest. Most persons are quite turned off by her. Yet she has helped many in her testimony on forgiveness and she had a lot happen to her too forgive. That is the main focus of her ministry. My dearest tunes in every week and it has helped. She too has had a lot done to her since very early childhood that she has worked on for years trying to forgive.
A sermon in a way is like someone bringing you platters of food you didn't order and half or part of the food you like and half you can not either eat of don't like it. So do you throw out the entire platter? Or do you gain nourishment and enjoyment from what you do like and need?
I'm glad I'm not Catholic because I unconditionally loathe the taste of fish. Forget it I'm not eating it I don't care who says too unless The Lord Himself tells me I must. I'm sure good Catholics eat fish on Friday because I've heard it all my life and every Friday in public school was fish day. I packed a lunch.
Show me just about any church and given time I could very likely find a not so proud moment in it's past, a practice other churches do not do, a belief other churches reject, flaws in dogma or doctrines, etc. It has literally brought people too war throughout history trying to either force conversion {impossible to do} or rid a nation of a belief other than the sanctioned church.
"Get thee behind me, Satan!"
I am, too!
Words mean things.
Who ran against him?
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