[Jeff Head]

I knew Spencer Kimball, and what you read is out of context.

Yes, the Church believes man, as children of God in Heaven (just as Paul teaches in Romans) can become perfect, even as God in Heaven is perfect, just like Christ taught in Matthew.

But the Church teaches, and I know personally that Spencer Kimball taught that the only way possible for us to “pull ourselves up” was through accepting and having the Atonement of Jesus Christ made effective in our life.

His book, “The Miracle of Forgiveness,” is an excellent explanation of how he felt.

Sorry...but the endless cut and pastes are presented to paint the picture you want painted of the LDS...not what is actually believed or taught.

We have been around and around on thios so many times...as I stated earlier on this thread.

The Witness of Christ Jesus stands...despite whatever mortal weaknesses we as huimans (all of us) may have.

No sense in rehashing this futher. I will leave it at that.

[Colofornian]

I knew Spencer Kimball, and what you read is out of context. Yes, the Church believes man, as children of God in Heaven (just as Paul teaches in Romans) can become perfect, even as God in Heaven is perfect, just like Christ taught in Matthew. But the Church teaches, and I know personally that Spencer Kimball taught that the only way possible for us to “pull ourselves up” was through accepting and having the Atonement of Jesus Christ made effective in our life. His book, “The Miracle of Forgiveness,” is an excellent explanation of how he felt. Sorry...but the endless cut and pastes are presented to paint the picture you want painted of the LDS...not what is actually believed or taught.

Jeff, I own that book by Kimball you reference -- THE Miracle of Forgiveness -- and I've read it..keep reading for two references from that book below re: "how Kimball felt":

So first -- by way of introduction -- What does Mormon doctrine say? "Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved." (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 132:32)

The Bible says that Abraham was saved by faith (Gen. 15:6; Rom. 4:2-3) -- not by following a law that had yet to be introduced to anyone of his generation. Rom. 3:20 very specifically says the purpose of the law was to gain knowledge of sin -- not to find salvation. In fact, that verse makes it quite clear that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."

Mormonism declares the primary impetus for God's forgiveness isn't based upon His grace & mercy, but rather upon living his commandments (legalism):

"To make our repentance complete we must always keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32). A person is not fully repentant who does not pay this tithes or does not keep the Sabbath day holy or refuses to obey the Word of Wisdom. He is not repentant if he does not sustain the authorities of the Church and does not love the Lord or his fellowmen. A man who fails to have his family prayers and who is unkind to his family and others is surely not repentant...President [Spencer W.] Kimball said...spend the balance of your lives trying to live the commandments of the Lord so he can eventually pardon you and cleanse you." (Lds church, Gospel Principles, p. 120-122, citing Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 200)

The Lds church has it backwards. We are forgiven & cleansed; and therefore God works through us to assist us in good works and pure living. Whereas the Mormon church ey thinks you have to engage in commandment-obedience so that God will eventually pardon & cleanse us. (That's legalism)

Past "prophets" like Spencer W. Kimball & others then stress that you have to earn forgiveness -- Kimball even had a chapter in that book entitled, "Keeping God's Commandments Brings Forgiveness."

Therefore: The official Mormon church clear teaching here is that you MUST FIRST EARN forgiveness by ALWAYS living/keeping the commandments -- and THEN God might "eventually" forgive. How foreign to the true gospel -- where God forgives you NOT on the basis of your obedience level, but due to His own graciousness and mercy revealed in the Person of His Son dying on the cross for our sin.

[Elsie]

But the Church teaches, and I know personally that Spencer Kimball taught that the only way possible for us to “pull ourselves up” was through accepting and having the Atonement of Jesus Christ made effective in our life.

O...

K...

---

I have no knowledge of what he TAUGHT; but I am aware of what the Articles of Faith SAY:

The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
10. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may
11. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
12. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

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