Why I do not believe in the 'Rapture'

[Iggles Phan]

My problem with the 'Rapture' (pre-millenial; pre-tribulation) teaching is that it forces its adherents to actually REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

That's correct.

In the 'Rapture' (or Dispensational) scheme the believer is asked to take the Person of Daniel's 70th Week (Who is Jesus Christ at the Cross) described in Chapter 9, verse 27a:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ..."

... and reverse this 'he' to mean a 'future Antichrist'.

Are you confused?

Is this Jesus Christ or Antichrist?

1. The Historic View.

This view is typified by the 1599 Geneva Bible notes. These are the notes of John Calvin, Miles Coverdale, and John Knox to name a few.

1599 Geneva Bible Notes on Daniel 9:27a:

"By the preaching of the gospel he confirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles. Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection."

It's pretty clear that the Reformers believed that Christ was the Person of Daniel's Great 70th Week.

2. The Modernist View (Dispensational).

In contrast however, compare this historic view to the Dispensational view typified in the Ryrie Study Notes (1978). Look who the modernists assign to this very same Person in Daniel 9:27a:

"The prince of verse 26, the Antichrist previously introduced in 7:8, 24-26, who will make a pact with many (of the Jewish people) at the beginning of the tribulation period. But in the middle of the week (i.e., 3 1/2 years later) Antichrist will break his covenant and desecrate the Temple by demanding worship of himself in it."

The difference couldn't be farther apart.

Historic Christianity says that Jesus fulfilled the 70th week AT THE CROSS, but Rapture Christianity (Dispensationalism) says that the Devil fulfills it in a 're-built' temple.

Therefore, Dispensationalism is no less than a frontal assault on the Cross of Christ. It reverses Jesus Christ to the Devil. It is malicious and a pernicious doctrine.

Remember, this Dispensational view was NEVER known until 1830. That's why it is a Modernist view. It was invented by JN Darby and popularized by CI Scofield, two con-men to Christianity.

In the 20th century, carpetbaggers such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jack (and Rexella) Van Impe, John Hagee and others have made fame and fortune off of this con game. They have marketed this 'Rapture' theology like a cheap box of laundry detergent on TV and radio, and with videos and books.

My hope and prayer is that the Church starts to wake up out of its slumber and starts challenging its pastors, ministries, and teachers. The Cross of Christ is at stake here!

For the Glory of Christ Jesus. Amen.

[caww]

I know you do Elsie.... and it's escalating at warp speed today as people are well primed now for it. The enemy of men's sould knows his time is short. We see this also as the International Stage is being set. Interesting reads on Europe's attempts to calm the economic climate...and now the Feds working with the International Banks.... As they manuver soverign nations to a place if weakness under their debt, manipulating them so as to assume economic leverage to weaken them and ultimately control....one world monetary system fast moving into place...and already operating under the IMF, WTO, UN and others.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

You're exactly right, caww.

The deceptions which were prophesied for the days right before Christ's return are in full bloom and we get to see them right in our FR corner of the world.

I don't know if you spotted it, but I posted to Quix a link to a message by an awesome pastor in Hawaii, Pastor JD, who does an excellent job in showing how the current denials of and assaults against the Biblical doctrine of the Rapture are the fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:3 and is further evidence of the soon return of our Savior.

The deceptions are only going to get worse.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Well, he would know his way around well enough if he's not really a noob.

I'm still waiting for a reply to my post....maybe there's nothing that can be said?

[caww]

REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

Oh that was slick right from the get go oh slippery one.

[Elsie]

....one world monetary system fast moving into place...

If'n yer hungry; hie thee to UTAH, where I'm told that 57% of them folks have food stored enough for a year.

That's like, what?

Every other HOUSE?

[Elsie]

REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

MY plan was BETTER; but Dad LIKED him more!

[caww]

The deceptions are only going to get worse.

Yes and we need to be watching for them..what I do see is we let are guards down before they have us swept up into their plays. A re-look at this articles very first line should have been a heads up the poster had no interest in dialogue. Rather a podium...as well as the twisting of what was stated is out of a pay book we should all not be ignorant of.

[Quix]

I don't think that's going to happen Cvenger....to acknowledge the truth of what scripture says will remove the great arrogance we've seen throughout this thread..and that they will not bend on...the "feeling" of self importance is too great to sacrifice.

After reading this thread it was not hard to discern the one posting the article wanted and still wants a teaching" thread where he himself is the central figure...at the podium if you will.... This became clear very early on.

It's never been about discussion, rather a 'platform' to spew across FR his distortions and falsehoods just as is being done within the churches today. IMO working for the enemy of men's souls.

Your astute discernment and observations appear to be thoroughly accurate, to me. Sadly. Thanks. Couldn't have said it half as well, myself.

[Quix]

A re-look at this articles very first line should have been a heads up the poster had no interest in dialogue. Rather a podium...as well as the twisting of what was stated is out of a pay book we should all not be ignorant of.

INDEED. Sigh.

[HarleyD]

I believe the error of the Dispensationalist doesn’t rest upon the interpretations of Daniel, Matthew, Jeremiah, or any one else. Rather it rests upon the definition of the “chosen people”. Dispensationalist have a warm spot in their heart for the Jews, and rightfully they should. However, they tend to lose sight that these people are lost just as much as a Muslim or Buddhist. While God extends grace to all, He does not hold out His special blessings to those who hold His Son in contempt.

Living by the Law will not get you into heaven nor will God look favorably on you. Only what Christ has done for us will cover us with God’s grace.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind replies.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.

BLESSED BE ALL WHO GENUINELY SEEK HIS TRUTH
WITH TEACHABLE HEARTS; EYES TO SEE AND EARS TO HEAR.

[Quix]

The deceptions are only going to get worse.

---

INDEED

[Quix]

REVERSE the Person of Jesus Christ to the Devil.

Oh that was slick right from the get go oh slippery one.

That bit of hideousness was one of the things that really angered me. Ascribing stuff to our Precious Lord Jesus that belong exclusively to the Anti-Christ! How hideous can one get!

Seems rather like the following fits such folks:

.

[GiovannaNicoletta]

Here is a synopsis of the unfortunately wrong interpretation of Biblical prophecy as practiced by Catholics and mainstream Reformed religions that leads some of the adherents to turn against Israel and put themselves in a position of enmity with God.

And here, here, and here is overwhelming Scriptural proof of God's future plans for Israel, the fact that they will hold exalted positions in His earthly Millennial Kingdom, the fact that He is in the process of bringing them back into relationship with Himself, and the fact that the nation of Israel will be saved.

Bible-believing Christians are absolutely correct in their love and support of God's chosen people, the Jews, and His chosen nation, Israel.

[aruanan]

So, when God says clearly and unmistakably that The Lord Himself will descend from Heaven, what exactly do you get from that? What is your personal interpretation of that? Can you post the portion of the verse that states that the angels will catch those in Christ up? Because this passage only speaks of the voice of the archangel. So I really need to know where this Scripture tells us that the angels will come and get Church-age believers and take them back to Heaven.

First of all, your dispensationalist beliefs have divvied up believers into several groups. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that a "Church-age believer" is any different than anyone else belonging to Christ from Adam onward to the end of the age. Those to whom Jesus spoke in Matthew 13 and 24, reminding them to beware of those claiming to know of a limited, restricted return of Christ, reminding them to persevere to the end and be saved, are part of the elect, the children of the kingdom, the wheat sown by God in the field which is the world. All those who are saved, who are justified by the sacrifice of Jesus, are members of the same family of faith of which Paul said Abraham was the father, are part of the bride of Christ, are members of the same body of Christ, his church, the called-out ones.

Second, it's strange that you can look at two descriptions of the same event with their major overlapping details (the Lord descending from heaven/appearing in the sky, the archangel/angels, the trumpet/the blast of the trumpet of God, the gathering of all believers both alive and dead (presumably from throughout the earth)/the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other) and somehow conclude that must be referring to two separate events. These are nowhere in scripture contrasted as two separate events, but your eschatology requires it, in spite of the Lord's own explanation of exactly what that parable of the field meant: the field is the world, the wheat are the elect, the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the evil one, the harvest is the end of the world, the reapers are the angels.

I'm really interested to see your personal interpretation of that verse and where you see angels coming to get believers in Christ. Can you help me out here?

As Jesus said, "And he [the Son of Man] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Note that it is your eschatology, not the scripture, that prevents you from accepting that this gathering up to Jesus in the clouds in Matthew 13/24 is exactly the same event as that described in Corinthians and Thessalonians. That is because you have already concluded, without scriptural foundation, that since "church-age" believers wouldn't go through the tribulation this couldn't be referring to them, in spite of Jesus warning believers long in advance, in order that they not lose heart when faced with these trials, that they would experience persecution to the point of death. Again, it's your eschatology that has shaped your view to the point that virtually twin descriptions between Matthew 13/24 and Paul's in Corinthians/Thess must be taken to be descriptions of virtually identical, though separate events.

And then, there is the discrepancy between the fact that In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24, the angels gather those who have become saved during the Tribulation after Christ' s arrival to earth. This is a huge problem for post-tribbers. Hopefully you have an answer from your own personal interpretation.

Again, it is your eschatology, not scripture, that considers those of Matthew 24 to be a different set of people from those of I Thess 4. Furthermore, you mischaracterize Jesus's description of the events in Matthew 24. Jesus says that the children of the kingdom will be gathered to the Son of Man when he makes his appearance in the sky at the end of the age after the children of the evil one have been cleared out. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that contradicts what Paul in either of his letters says he has by the Lord's own word about what is going to happen.

And you're overlooking what both Peter and Paul say about these events occurring on the Day of the Lord.

Peter: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.--II Peter 2:10-13

So Peter was talking to a group of believers who would be around up until the final divine denouement. Are you saying, 'Well, uh, these weren't "church-age believers." These must be Jewish believers who don't get the special, escape-the-tribulation package.' But Peter nowhere in either letter makes such a distinction. He writes to those strangers scattered throughout many countries who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation that is to be revealed in the last time, who, for a while, are undergoing a trial of their faith.

Paul (just after he told them about the return of the Lord): For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.--I Thess 5:2

So here Paul in much the same language alludes to the same event as Peter above. And, like Peter above, he acknowledges that believers will be around to see it and experience it as well as the trouble leading up to it, hence his admonition to watch and be sober.

Paul (just before reiterating his previous words about the return of Jesus for his believers but telling them that they will stand fast even when confronted by the one working powers, signs, and lying wonders): We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. --II Thess 1:3-10

If you're going to maintain that this flaming vengeance poured out on the persecutors on the Day of the Lord when Jesus comes to be gloried in his saints and admired by them is something subsequent to and not coincident with the return of Jesus for his saints, then you have to explain why both Peter and Paul are encouraging the readers of their letters to stay strong in their persecution and to hasten that day of the Lord's appearance without a single mention of "Oh, hey, but you're not going to go through trouble and tribulation and persecution during the time the one working powers, signs, and lying wonders, but come back at the end of it all for a special appearance with Jesus."

Both Paul and Peter, like Jesus, used the final triumphant return of Jesus and his giving recompense to those persecuting the believers as a means to give comfort and hope to those believers suffering for their faith in Jesus. As Paul had said, "Hey, don't be troubled by reports that it's already happened. When it does, it's going to happen to all of us, the living and the dead--and here's something special, never before revealed: when it happens, those of us who are living will be instantly transformed." Similarly Jesus had said not to be fooled by those claiming a limited, secret return. He said, "When I come back, EVERY eye is going to see it and the evil ones are going to realize exactly what's happening and then get totally nailed."

Jesus, Peter, and Paul talked about the Day of the Lord when Jesus would return for his own, a day of fire and burning when evil would be defeated and the believers saved. Jesus and Paul gave more specific details about the believers being gathered to him in the sky at that time and Paul gave the really specific detail about the dead rising first and the transformation of those still living at the time, but they all said to watch out, to hold fast to the truth, and to be ready.

And the really strange thing appears to be that those who hold to a pre-trib belief are telling those who say nothing different than what Jesus, Paul, and Peter say about standing true in persecution, even to the point of death, awaiting his return and conquering of his enemies and their persecutors, "Hey, you don't believe that a special group of people called the "church-age believers" are going to get a special pass to escape a specific time of suffering and death, and your refusal to believe this is the shibboleth by which your heart of unbelief in the word of God is revealed," a means test that is nowhere discussed in any scripture. That's almost as senseless as saying, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved--but actually your faith is a gift and is an after-the-fact-of-justification sign of your prior unconditional election and you who do die of persecution and you who get to escape the tribulation and you who commit the persecution all do so inescapably by the express will of God decided by God, and antecedent to any foreknowledge, before the foundations of the earth, all for the greater glory of God."

[Quix]

I don't see it having ANYTHING to do with those issues.

It strictly has to do with God's EVERLASTING PROMISE TO HIS BUDDY, HIS FRIEND, ABRAHAM. PERIOD.

GOD CHOSE FOR HIMSELF

A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB'S SEED.

He has NEVER and WILL NEVER broken or abandoned that covenant as the following Scripture indicates--amongst others.

 

Jeremiah 31:35-36

 

35:  Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36:  If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

 

 

Jeremiah 31:37

 

37:    Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured...I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD

  :

 

Jeremiah 23:5-8

 

5: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6: In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7: Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

8: But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land

 

 

 

 

God's Promise to Israel

 

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished (Jeremiah 30:11).

 

Every bit of evidence convinces me that REPLACEMENTARIANISM IS from the pit of hell.

The grafted-in folks . . . will NEVER replace the main trunk.

God has His own ruling and reigning plans for both THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL.

[Iggles Phan]

“The AntiChrist is not Satan. They are two distinct persons.”

Answer:

This really kills me.

So in your mind it OK to confuse Jesus with Antichrist, but not Satan?

????

[Iggles Phan]

“The more one argues against God’s Prophecy the more they scar their soul.”

Answer:

Again, I am not arguing ‘prophecy’ here.

The issue of Daniel’s 70th Week is one of LOYALTY towards are our Lord and the Cross, or BETRAYAL thereof.

That’s not a ‘prophetic’ issue. It is an issue of correctly identifying Jesus.

Dispensationalists are making more of this than I am.

[Quix]

I’m thoroughly convinced that the regular RM is exceedingly objective . . . though it seems like he can bend over further than I would insuring that those of questionable views have the benefit of the doubt.

---

The more likely explanation to me is some previous RM or some other senior mod posting over the RM’s handle. Over the 10+ years, there have been many times that when something obnoxiously unfitting has gone down, and it has evidently NOT been the regular RM responsible. The regular RM was clearly not on duty (usually detectable by style components) or some other tell-tale difference indicated such.

I think it’s obvious to several dozen of us that at least a mod or 3 are extremely hostile to our perspectives and likely to our persons. That’s not likely to change.

[Uri’el-2012]

Therefore to be consistent, one would expect each verse to resemble an A-B, A-B construct.

Dispensationalism violates this Scriptural pattern by using an A-B, B-B construct!

Where is this from ?

What is it supposed to represent ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach