[aruanan]

So, when God says clearly and unmistakably that The Lord Himself will descend from Heaven, what exactly do you get from that? What is your personal interpretation of that? Can you post the portion of the verse that states that the angels will catch those in Christ up? Because this passage only speaks of the voice of the archangel. So I really need to know where this Scripture tells us that the angels will come and get Church-age believers and take them back to Heaven.

First of all, your dispensationalist beliefs have divvied up believers into several groups. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that a "Church-age believer" is any different than anyone else belonging to Christ from Adam onward to the end of the age. Those to whom Jesus spoke in Matthew 13 and 24, reminding them to beware of those claiming to know of a limited, restricted return of Christ, reminding them to persevere to the end and be saved, are part of the elect, the children of the kingdom, the wheat sown by God in the field which is the world. All those who are saved, who are justified by the sacrifice of Jesus, are members of the same family of faith of which Paul said Abraham was the father, are part of the bride of Christ, are members of the same body of Christ, his church, the called-out ones.

Second, it's strange that you can look at two descriptions of the same event with their major overlapping details (the Lord descending from heaven/appearing in the sky, the archangel/angels, the trumpet/the blast of the trumpet of God, the gathering of all believers both alive and dead (presumably from throughout the earth)/the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other) and somehow conclude that must be referring to two separate events. These are nowhere in scripture contrasted as two separate events, but your eschatology requires it, in spite of the Lord's own explanation of exactly what that parable of the field meant: the field is the world, the wheat are the elect, the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the evil one, the harvest is the end of the world, the reapers are the angels.

I'm really interested to see your personal interpretation of that verse and where you see angels coming to get believers in Christ. Can you help me out here?

As Jesus said, "And he [the Son of Man] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Note that it is your eschatology, not the scripture, that prevents you from accepting that this gathering up to Jesus in the clouds in Matthew 13/24 is exactly the same event as that described in Corinthians and Thessalonians. That is because you have already concluded, without scriptural foundation, that since "church-age" believers wouldn't go through the tribulation this couldn't be referring to them, in spite of Jesus warning believers long in advance, in order that they not lose heart when faced with these trials, that they would experience persecution to the point of death. Again, it's your eschatology that has shaped your view to the point that virtually twin descriptions between Matthew 13/24 and Paul's in Corinthians/Thess must be taken to be descriptions of virtually identical, though separate events.

And then, there is the discrepancy between the fact that In 1 Thessalonians 4 believers are gathered in the air and taken to heaven, while in Matthew 24, the angels gather those who have become saved during the Tribulation after Christ' s arrival to earth. This is a huge problem for post-tribbers. Hopefully you have an answer from your own personal interpretation.

Again, it is your eschatology, not scripture, that considers those of Matthew 24 to be a different set of people from those of I Thess 4. Furthermore, you mischaracterize Jesus's description of the events in Matthew 24. Jesus says that the children of the kingdom will be gathered to the Son of Man when he makes his appearance in the sky at the end of the age after the children of the evil one have been cleared out. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that contradicts what Paul in either of his letters says he has by the Lord's own word about what is going to happen.

And you're overlooking what both Peter and Paul say about these events occurring on the Day of the Lord.

Peter: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.--II Peter 2:10-13

So Peter was talking to a group of believers who would be around up until the final divine denouement. Are you saying, 'Well, uh, these weren't "church-age believers." These must be Jewish believers who don't get the special, escape-the-tribulation package.' But Peter nowhere in either letter makes such a distinction. He writes to those strangers scattered throughout many countries who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation that is to be revealed in the last time, who, for a while, are undergoing a trial of their faith.

Paul (just after he told them about the return of the Lord): For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.--I Thess 5:2

So here Paul in much the same language alludes to the same event as Peter above. And, like Peter above, he acknowledges that believers will be around to see it and experience it as well as the trouble leading up to it, hence his admonition to watch and be sober.

Paul (just before reiterating his previous words about the return of Jesus for his believers but telling them that they will stand fast even when confronted by the one working powers, signs, and lying wonders): We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. --II Thess 1:3-10

If you're going to maintain that this flaming vengeance poured out on the persecutors on the Day of the Lord when Jesus comes to be gloried in his saints and admired by them is something subsequent to and not coincident with the return of Jesus for his saints, then you have to explain why both Peter and Paul are encouraging the readers of their letters to stay strong in their persecution and to hasten that day of the Lord's appearance without a single mention of "Oh, hey, but you're not going to go through trouble and tribulation and persecution during the time the one working powers, signs, and lying wonders, but come back at the end of it all for a special appearance with Jesus."

Both Paul and Peter, like Jesus, used the final triumphant return of Jesus and his giving recompense to those persecuting the believers as a means to give comfort and hope to those believers suffering for their faith in Jesus. As Paul had said, "Hey, don't be troubled by reports that it's already happened. When it does, it's going to happen to all of us, the living and the dead--and here's something special, never before revealed: when it happens, those of us who are living will be instantly transformed." Similarly Jesus had said not to be fooled by those claiming a limited, secret return. He said, "When I come back, EVERY eye is going to see it and the evil ones are going to realize exactly what's happening and then get totally nailed."

Jesus, Peter, and Paul talked about the Day of the Lord when Jesus would return for his own, a day of fire and burning when evil would be defeated and the believers saved. Jesus and Paul gave more specific details about the believers being gathered to him in the sky at that time and Paul gave the really specific detail about the dead rising first and the transformation of those still living at the time, but they all said to watch out, to hold fast to the truth, and to be ready.

And the really strange thing appears to be that those who hold to a pre-trib belief are telling those who say nothing different than what Jesus, Paul, and Peter say about standing true in persecution, even to the point of death, awaiting his return and conquering of his enemies and their persecutors, "Hey, you don't believe that a special group of people called the "church-age believers" are going to get a special pass to escape a specific time of suffering and death, and your refusal to believe this is the shibboleth by which your heart of unbelief in the word of God is revealed," a means test that is nowhere discussed in any scripture. That's almost as senseless as saying, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you'll be saved--but actually your faith is a gift and is an after-the-fact-of-justification sign of your prior unconditional election and you who do die of persecution and you who get to escape the tribulation and you who commit the persecution all do so inescapably by the express will of God decided by God, and antecedent to any foreknowledge, before the foundations of the earth, all for the greater glory of God."

[GiovannaNicoletta]

First of all, your dispensationalist beliefs have divvied up believers into several groups. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that a "Church-age believer" is any different than anyone else belonging to Christ from Adam onward to the end of the age.

No, Scripture divides believers into different groups.

The Church - The Church is a gathering of called out people, from the day of Pentecost by the power of the Holy spirit on the basis of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. They have been saved, separated, sanctified, and regenerated to be the family of God. They follow Christ, learn from Him and any one can notice their Christ-like behavior.

Just before His ascension to heaven the Lord Jesus commanded His disciples to remain in Jerusalem till they shall be baptized by the Holy Sprit. Acts 1:5.

In Acts 2 we see on the day of Pentecost as they were all together in one place, The Holy Spirit came upon all of them along with some spectacular, miraculous manifestations. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit. In the end of that chapter we read, “And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.”

So, from the above mentioned portions we understand that Church was formed on the day of Pentecost with the baptism of Holy Spirit. Paul affirms it in 1 Corinthians 12:13. Baptism of the Holy Spirit was to unite different class of people into one body. It is the Lord who adds people to the church as they got saved by trusting Him as their Savior and Lord.

The Elect of Matthew 24-The contextual usage of Matthew supports the elect as a reference to Israel because of the Jewish orientation of the passage.

Dr. Stanley Toussaint (Behold The King: A Study of Matthew):

"Such terms as the gospel of the kingdom (24:14), the holy place (24:15), the Sabbath (24:20), and the Messiah (24:23-24) indicate that Israel as a nation is in view,"

Dr. Renald Showers (Maranatha: Our Lord, Come!):

"The elect are the faithful, believing Israelite remnant in contrast with the unbelieving sinners within the nation. In Isaiah 65:7-16 God drew a contrast between these two groups and their destinies. In verse 9 He called the believing remnant " mine Elect," and in verses 17-25 He indicated that in the future Millennium His elect remnant of the nation will be blessed greatly on the earth."

Since the term " elect" is used three times in Matthew 24 (verses 22, 24, 31; see also Mark 13:20, 22, 27), it is most likely that the author uses it to refer to the same entity all three times.

Dr. McAvoy (Critique of Gundry):

" The rule of context precludes understanding ' elect' in 24:22, 24 as referring to Israel and then nine verses later as referring to the church. Without some indication of transition from one intended meaning to another ' elect' in 24:21 must mean the same as it does in 24:22, 24."

Further evidence that Matthew 24:31 is not a Rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom.

Dr. Renald Showers notes that "from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" means that " the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ' s coming," and provides more proof of the identity of the "elect" in Matthew 24:31:

First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.

Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). Note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vereses 10, 20).

Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .

What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel.

Tribulation Saints - The Bible predicts that a huge number of people will be saved during the seven year Tribulation. Rev 7:9 describes the number as a "great multitude, which no man could number."

During the Tribulation, many people who remain on earht after the Rapture will come to know Christ Jesus as Savior. These are the tribulation saints who will face the wrath of Antichrist (Revelation 13:7), yet their eternal salvation is secure (Revelation 14:12-13).

When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. (Revelation 6:9-11)

So we know that these are a specific group of believers which have, during the breaking of the first judgments of the Tribulation, been killed at some time previously. Contrast that with Church-age believers:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:8-10)

The only way the 24 elders could sing this "new song" is if they represent the Church. Only the church has been redeemed by the blood of Jesus out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation and only the church will be made Kings and Priests to reign on Earth.

These elders are never shown in Old Testament visions of the Throne of God, but in Rev. 4 they’re shown seated on thrones like kings, they’re dressed in white which means they’re righteous, and they’re wearing the crowns of over comers. Only the Church fits that description.

The Tribulation martyrs of Rev. 6 are under the altar, not seated on thrones. And the multitude in Rev. 7 serve God His Temple but don’t reign with Him and are never called either kings or priests.

So it is the Holy Spirit, not Dispensationialists, Who divide believers into different groups. It is the Holy Spirit Who, as we see from the Book that He wrote, states that Church-age believers are different from other believers at different times in both history and the future.

Second, it's strange that you can look at two descriptions of the same event with their major overlapping details (the Lord descending from heaven/appearing in the sky, the archangel/angels, the trumpet/the blast of the trumpet of God, the gathering of all believers both alive and dead (presumably from throughout the earth)/the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other) and somehow conclude that must be referring to two separate events. These are nowhere in scripture contrasted as two separate events, but your eschatology requires it, in spite of the Lord's own explanation of exactly what that parable of the field meant: the field is the world, the wheat are the elect, the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the evil one, the harvest is the end of the world, the reapers are the angels.

I'm just going by what God says about it. I'll let the word of God speak for itself.

Characteristics of the Rapture

• Translation of all believers
• Translated saints go to heaven
• The Earth is not judged
• Imminent, any-moment, signless
• Not in the Old Testament
• Believers only
• Before the day of wrath
• No reference to Satan
• Christ comes for His own
• He comes in the air
• He claims His bride
• Only His own see Him
• Tribulation begins

Rapture Scriptures:

John 14:1-3
1 Thess 4:13-18
1 Cor 15:51-53
Col 3:4
Heb 9:28
1 John 2:28-3:2
James 5:7-9
1 Thess 1:10
1 Thess 2:19
1 Thess 3:13
1 Thess 5:23
Phil 3:20-21
Titus 2:13
1 Cor 1:7-8
1 Peter 1:7, 13
Jude 21

Characteristics of the Second Coming:

• No translation at all
• Translated saints return to earth
• Earth judged & righteousness established
• Follows definite predicted signs including Tribulation
• Predicted often in Old Testament
• Affects all men
• Concluding the day of wrath
• Satan bound
• Christ comes with His own
• He comes to the earth
• He comes with His bride
• Every eye shall see Him
• Millennial Kingdom begins

Second coming Scriptures:

Daniel 2:44-45
Daniel 7:9-14
Daniel 12:1-3
Zech 14:1-15
Matt 13:41
Matt 24:15-31
Matt 26:64
Mark 13:14-27
Mark 14:62
Luke 21:25-28
Acts 1:9-11
Acts 3:19-21
2 Thess 1:6-10
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 14-15
Rev 1:7
Rev 19:11-20:6
Rev 22:7, 12, 20
Zech 12:10
1 Thess 3:13
2 Thess 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-13

So, yet again, there is no Scriptural support for the Rapture and the Second Coming as one event.

As Jesus said, "And he [the Son of Man] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Note that it is your eschatology, not the scripture, that prevents you from accepting that this gathering up to Jesus in the clouds in Matthew 13/24 is exactly the same event as that described in Corinthians and Thessalonians. That is because you have already concluded, without scriptural foundation, that since "church-age" believers wouldn't go through the tribulation this couldn't be referring to them, in spite of Jesus warning believers long in advance, in order that they not lose heart when faced with these trials, that they would experience persecution to the point of death. Again, it's your eschatology that has shaped your view to the point that virtually twin descriptions between Matthew 13/24 and Paul's in Corinthians/Thess must be taken to be descriptions of virtually identical, though separate events.

Covered in the first part of my response. Again, it is God and His word that separates the Rapture and the Second Coming, not my "eschatology".

Thus far, three paragraphs into your post, you have provided not one verse of Scripture that supports post-Tribulationism.

The rest of your post is taken care of by my responses in this thread. None of the Scriptures you posted support a post-Tribulation Rapture, and actually validate the facts that I have presented in this response.

Here are a few more huge problems with post-Tribulationism that no post-Tribber will touch:

• Post-Tribulationism requires that the church will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Daniel 9:24 says that all 70 weeks are for Israel. Pre-Tribulationism is not in conflict with this passage, as is post-Tribulationism, since the church departs before the beginning of the seven-year period.
• Second, post-Tribulationism must deny the New Testament teaching of imminency–that Christ could come at any-moment. Pre-Tribulationism does not have a problem with these New Testament passages, since they believe that no signs must precede the rapture.
• Premillennial post-Tribulationism has no answer to their problem of who will populate the millennium if the rapture and second coming occur at the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the rapture and all unbelievers judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ’s kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the millennium. The pre-trib viewpoint does not have a problem at this point.
• Post-Tribulationism is not is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the second coming in Matthew 25:31-46. As in the previous problem, how would there be any believers in mortal bodies, if they were raptured at the second coming, who would be available to enter into Christ’s kingdom? Pretribulationism does not have such a problem.
• Since Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ’s Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Rev. 19:14) before the second coming, how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on earth awaiting Christ’s Advent? If the rapture of the church takes place at the second coming, then how does the Bride (i.e., the Church) also come with Christ at His return? There would not be sufficient time for this to happen within a post-Tribulational sequence, but the pre-Trib position has no such problem.

So, there are no Scriptures to support a post-Tribulation Rapture, and every Rapture passage which addresses that issue assures the Bride that we will not be on earth during the judgments God has for this world.

I guess I'll stick to what the Holy Spirit has told us about the Rapture and the promises made to the Church by Jesus Christ.