Posted on 08/01/2010 4:50:30 AM PDT by geraldmcg
A trial date has been set for September 16th in District Court in Dearborn, Michigan with four Christians charged with breach of the peace after they tried to share their Christian faith to Muslims at the June 18th International Arab festival.
As the four were taken off to jail, many in the crowd shouted "Allah Akbar" as the four were placed in handcuffs. Robert Muise of the Thomas More Law Center says there is the very strong possibility that a federal Civil Rights case will be filed on behalf of the four Christians.
Muise also says, "It's evident that the Dearborn Police Department was more interested in placating Muslims than obeying the U-S Constitution."
State Representative Tom McMillin of Rochester Hills, Michigan has called on Michigan’s Attorney General Mike Cox to investigate the arrest of the Christians, who were exercising their First Amendment rights on public property.
View the full video news story at: http://www.cleantv.com/web/ProgramDetail.aspx?pid=322
I do see the world as it is with no help from you.
You seem to be the one with a vision problem.
A physical bible will not stop a swinging scimitar or a neck cutting knife.
I have no idea as that is not my gig. In my opinion the only good muslim is a dead one.
They get treated almost as well as they treat Jews.
Cool with me. I guess you have noticed a similar attitude from Muslims toward Christians Jews, ... .
I’ve provided scriptures and scriptural examples of men and women being used by God to affect their culture. God does not reprimand these people, in fact, He puts them in His bible for us to see and appreciate and learn from.
I’ve also presented (in my limited abilities) an example of applying, actually APPLYING A BIBLICAL CONCEPT - of stewardship - to OUR ACTUAL LIVES as citizens of this country, where GOD HAS PLACED US NOW FOR HIS PURPOSES.
Paul and Joseph and Esther weren’t omniscient, knowing how every detail in their lives would play out in the future, but, they each had to exercise faith in that God would work through them...same as us.
And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight...Hebrews 11
...do you need even more scriptures? I can find more, it’s not difficult, as the entire bible is filled with examples of God working His will through His people on earth. Come to think of it Jesus taught His disciples to pray...”Our Father...Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven...” Surely, God is very concerned with how we govern His Earth.
You didn’t read the passage. You understand neither the scriptures, nor the power of God.
I understand you might want to tend to your own knitting.
...true that...and even if you’re Islam but not the right flavor of Islam you can be killed for that, too. Hard to believe how anyone can think this is a “great religion.”
You've provided Scriptures of men and women who were living their lives according to God's will for them to try to justify people taking it upon themselves to get themselves installed in government to govern people.
You have provided no Scripture where Jesus tells Christians to govern over people. None.
I’ve also presented (in my limited abilities) an example of applying, actually APPLYING A BIBLICAL CONCEPT - of stewardship - to OUR ACTUAL LIVES as citizens of this country, where GOD HAS PLACED US NOW FOR HIS PURPOSES.
But what if God's purpose for a person's life is cleaning toilets in a prison? You provided examples of people carrying out God's will for their lives. What God's plan for them is not what God intends for everyone.
Paul and Joseph and Esther weren’t omniscient, knowing how every detail in their lives would play out in the future, but, they each had to exercise faith in that God would work through them...same as us.
That's right. But they did what God told them to do. They did not decide that what they were going to do was to get themselves in the government so they could rule over people, even if that may be what they wanted to do and what may have they thought they should do.
And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight...Hebrews 11
Again. These people were doing what God directed them to do. There is a difference between Christians submitting their will to God's will and deciding for themselves what is best and doing what they, in their limited, finite, "wisdom", think is best. Even if what they, in their own opinion, want to do isn't what God, the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God, does not want them to do.
..do you need even more scriptures? I can find more, it’s not difficult, as the entire bible is filled with examples of God working His will through His people on earth. Come to think of it Jesus taught His disciples to pray...”Our Father...Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven...” Surely, God is very concerned with how we govern His Earth.
And again. What if Jesus' will on earth is for Christians to not decide what His will is, but to hear His voice and obey His direction, even if that means not ruling over other people, but engaging in menial work that's not grand and glorious and doesn't bring glory to us, but to God?
You're stuck on this notion you have of Christians ruling the earth because Jesus said to pray that His will would be done on the earth. Please explain to me how His will automatically translates into Christians taking control over the government and ruling over other people.
I need the Scripture where Jesus explicitly tells Christians to rule over the earth.
Before proceeding let me recap how I think we got to where we are at. I’d also like to say that though I felt exasperation upon reading your most recent post - I do appreciate the opportunity to address your comments.
How we got here (in my view):
1) In post 42 you made statements about the eradication of Christians and the capital “A” Antichrist and the capital “T” Tribulation...
...statements for which I did not ask for scriptural references - but now I will ask: Show me a scripture saying that an “Antichrist” will rule over the entire world and behead everyone who refuses allegience to him. And it doesn’t need to be a scripture attributed to Jesus (as you ask of me) because the entire word of God is the word of Christ.,,,And while you are at it, please provide an explicit scripture about the “Tribulation” being a seven year period and so forth.
2) I have in my limited abilities offered a few scriptures (not every one that I could provide) in posts 45, 58, 60, 62, 65, 85 to show:
-God uses regular people who respond to Him in faith to do mighty things by His power
-that Jesus has commissioned us to disciple and teach nations all that He commanded
3) The scriptures I provided do not seem relevant to you because there is not one in which Jesus explicitly says for Christians to seek “taking control over the government and ruling over other people” - in your words. Never mind that in earlier post 65 I mentioned the concept of governing being “serving”...obviously you think that governing means dominating or oppressing others, but, though that is the way of the world it is not the way that God would have us to look at it...and yes...Jesus addressed this very idea in Matt 20:25...
...But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
4) Deu 15:6 “For the LORD your God will bless you as He has promised you, and you will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow; and you will rule over many nations, but they will not rule over you... comments?
5) Now for a scripture where Jesus tells His followers to explicitly rule over the earth - please realize that Jerusalem was occupied by the Romans and the disciples didn’t have the opportunity that we have to steward our freedom and affect our government.
Nevertheless, I would suggest the parable Jesus spoke in Luke 19:
...While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately...(I will not post the entire passage, but, I wish you’d read it for it contains this:
... “”And he said to him, ‘Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.’ Interesting that Jesus uses this language here...perhaps having authority over cities isn’t a bad thing after all.
6) That’s all for now. Honestly, I don’t know why you oppose God’s people discipling the nations when it is so clearly and explicitly commanded by Jesus Himself in Matt 28 (already mentioned in post 65.)
Regards,
The Bible tells us that in the last days one man will rule the world. He will rule over the entire human race politically, economically, and religiously, speaking great blasphemies against God and setting himself up in the Temple as God himself. But this man will not be God. He will be the very antithesis. He will even lead a rebellion against God, but he will be destroyed by the King of kings. History has deemed him the Antichrist, but he is known by other names as well, each being fully indicative of his character:
Through careful study of the Scriptures, we can learn much about the origins, disposition, and career of the one human being who will be the literal embodiment of Satan himself.
snip
7 Year Treaty with Israel
“He will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven” Daniel 9:27 (NLT)
The Antichrist will make a treaty with the people of Israel for a period of seven years. The details and nature of this treaty are yet unknown, but many have speculated that in a bid for Middle Eastern peace, Israel will agree to rely on the Antichrist for its national defense.
snip
Will Rule Politically, Religiously, and Economically
“He exercised all the authority of the first beast. And he required all the earth and those who belong to this world to worship the first beast, whose death-wound had been healed.” Revelation 13:12 (NLT)
The Antichrist will exercise all the authority of the first beast, which is the revived Roman Empire. He will require the world to worship and give allegiance to this empire, which will be resurrected from the dustbin of history.
“And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation.” Revelation 13:7 (NLT)
Not one person will escape the reach of the Antichrist and his governmental dominion. “He required everyone – great and small, rich and poor, slave and free – to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name.” Revelation 13:16-17 (NLT) The Antichrist will have unprecedented control over the world’s financial transactions. He will have so much power that he will be able to determine on a case-by-case basis which individuals will be allowed to buy or sell anything.
and behead everyone who refuses allegience to him.
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)
How do we Know the Tribulation Will Last Seven Years?
snip
An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.
With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.
Daniel 9:27 gives a few highlights of the seven-year tribulation period: “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” The person of whom this verse speaks is the person Jesus calls the “abomination that causes desolation” (Matthew 24:15) and is called “the beast” in Revelation 13. Daniel 9:27 says that the beast will make a covenant for seven years, but in the middle of this week (3 1/2 years into the tribulation), he will break the covenant, putting a stop to sacrifice. Revelation 13 explains that the beast will place an image of himself in the temple and require the world to worship him. Revelation 13:5 says that this will go on for 42 months, which is 3 1/2 years. Since Daniel 9:27 says that this will happen in the middle of the week, and Revelation 13:5 says that the beast will do this for a period of 42 months, it is easy to see that the total length of time is 84 months or seven years. Also see Daniel 7:25, where the “time, times, and half a time” (time=1 year; times=2 years; half a time=1/2 year; total of 3 1/2 years) also refers to “great tribulation,” the last half of the seven-year tribulation period when the beast will be in power.
For further references about the tribulation, see Revelation 11:2-3, which speaks of 1260 days and 42 months, and Daniel 12:11-12, which speaks of 1290 days and 1335 days. These days have a reference to the midpoint of the tribulation. The additional days in Daniel 12 may include the time at the end for the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-46) and time for the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).
I have in my limited abilities offered a few scriptures (not every one that I could provide) in posts 45, 58, 60, 62, 65, 85 to show:-God uses regular people who respond to Him in faith to do mighty things by His power -that Jesus has commissioned us to disciple and teach nations all that He commanded
But you did not show that Christ desires that Christians take over and run the government and rule over people.
"Teaching all nations all that He commanded" entails spreading the Gospel message so that as many people as possible can be part of the kingdom that Jesus Himself will set up on this earth, not human beings attempting to set up a kingdom for Christ or taking over earthly governments, which will all fail and cease to exist, for the purpose of governing people.
Nowhere in the Scripture does Jesus Christ tell Christians to rule over people.
The scriptures I provided do not seem relevant to you because there is not one in which Jesus explicitly says for Christians to seek “taking control over the government and ruling over other people” - in your words. Never mind that in earlier post 65 I mentioned the concept of governing being “serving”...obviously you think that governing means dominating or oppressing others, but, though that is the way of the world it is not the way that God would have us to look at it...and yes...Jesus addressed this very idea in Matt 20:25...
But the concept of "governing being serving" is your own and was never taught by Christ. People make the mistake all the time of deciding for themselves what they are going to do, and then declaring that what they want to do is what God wants them to do. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And Matthew 20:25 has nothing at all to do with running a government but is simply a teaching on leadership and authority - in all avenues of life. It is not some endorsement by Christ that Christians are to run government.
Deu 15:6 “For the LORD your God will bless you as He has promised you, and you will lend to many nations, but you will not borrow; and you will rule over many nations, but they will not rule over you... comments?
This is instruction given to the nation of Israel regarding cancelling all debts every seven years and the Lord blessing Israel and Israel not becoming indebted to other nations.
Now for a scripture where Jesus tells His followers to explicitly rule over the earth - please realize that Jerusalem was occupied by the Romans and the disciples didn’t have the opportunity that we have to steward our freedom and affect our government.
That makes no sense. So that then means that every single thing Jesus said or did not say pertained only to those who lived during the time of the Roman Empire?
So you're trying to tell me that nothing Jesus said would apply to anyone other than those living when He was on earth? You're trying to tell me that Jesus didn't tell His disciples to run the government because they lived under Roman rule but He really meant everybody who lived after that time to run their governments? Even though He never even gave the slightest hint whatsoever that that is what He wants His people to do?
Sorry. That's not going to fly. If you believe Jesus said Christians are to run governments, you need to produce Scripture that justifies that belief. Otherwise, the idea didn't come from Jesus Christ and looks a lot like Kingdom Come heresy.
“”And he said to him, ‘Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.’ Interesting that Jesus uses this language here...perhaps having authority over cities isn’t a bad thing after all.
The Parable of the Minas (Luke 19:11-27) is spoken by Jesus just before he enters Jerusalem for the last time. There are five major characters. The characters are: (1) the man of noble birth, (2) the subjects who hated him, (3) the servant who earned ten minas, (4) the servant who earned five minas, and (5) the servant who earned nothing. Each of these plays an important role. The man of noble birth is clearly meant to be Jesus, himself. He is to receive a kingdom and then return. The subjects who hated the man of noble birth represent the Jews who have rejected Jesus, and especially the religious leaders. The servant who earns ten minas and the servant who earns five minas both represent exemplary disciples of Jesus. The servant who earns nothing represents an unfruitful disciple of Jesus.
With the characters identified, we can piece together the meaning of the narrative.
A man of noble birth (Jesus) prepares to travel to a distant country and receive his kingdom (the kingdom of God). Before he leaves, he gives a single mina (responsibilities, abilities, opportunities, gospel message) to each of his servants (disciples) and instructs them to put the money to work (be fruitful with what Jesus has given them). A delegation of subjects who hate the man of noble birth (unbelieving Jews) protest his reception of the kingdom. Upon the man’s return (Jesus’ second coming at the consummation of the kingdom of God) he finds two servants (disciples) who invested (used their God-given abilities and opportunities) wisely. To these, he gives cities (heavenly rewards). The servant (disciple) who does not invest the mina (use the abilities or fulfill the responsibilities Jesus gave him) is reprimanded and has his mina taken from him and given to the servant (disciple) who earned ten minas. Finally, the subjects (unbelieving Jews) who hated the man of noble birth (Jesus) are executed (judged) for their rejection of the king (Jesus).
There seem to be at least five major points that the parable communicates. First, Jesus will leave his disciples for an undetermined amount of time. Second, Jesus will return to consummate his kingdom some time in the future. Third, disciples of Jesus who are good stewards in his absence will receive incredible rewards from him upon his return. Fourth, disciples of Jesus who are poor stewards in his absence will have their rewards taken away and given to the disciples who are good stewards. Fifth, those who reject Jesus as the rightful king will face a terrible judgment upon his return.
This parable is speaking of how we as Christians carry out the work Jesus has given us to do and the rewards which await each of us according to how obedient we have been. It has nothing at all to do with taking over governments and ruling over people.
Honestly, I don’t know why you oppose God’s people discipling the nations when it is so clearly and explicitly commanded by Jesus Himself in Matt 28 (already mentioned in post 65.)
And, yet again, the Great Commission, which is spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations, is about bringing people to Jesus for salvation.
No matter how hard you try and no matter how hard you may want it to be, you simply cannot wring out of that passage anything at all that remotely suggests that when Jesus told Christians to make disciples of all men, what He really meant was to take over earthly governments.
Thanks for your reply - I am certain that I would like to offer a thoughtful response, perhaps later today. I’m somewhat jammed up right now with work and personal responsibilities and unable to give the discussion its proper consideration...Regards,
I’ve had some time to consider your post 92 and would like to streamline some comments to address what seem to be two main issues of contention in our discussion. This does not mean that I have no comments to the information and link you provided in response to my request regarding your end time beliefs and I hope to review it in more depth and comment soon.
However, my thinking is that unless some consensus can be attained on these two main points which I believe lie at the heart of our discussion, we are unlikely to benefit much from addressing related matters. (I recognize this is only my opinion and I am willing to consider a different perspective regarding the dynamics and benefits of our discussion should you see things differently.) With this stated up front I will proceed to the two main points.
1) it appears we have different understanding regarding the kingdom of God, and
2) it appears we have different understanding regarding man’s relationship to the kingdom of God.
Regarding my point #1, the kingdom of God:
a) The kingdom of God (God’s dominion and governance) is very much a dominant theme of Christ’s teaching, as recorded in the bible. Do you agree? You may conduct a word search on “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” to see how prevalent this subject is.
b) Along with the kingdom of God being everlasting into the future, the kingdom exists in the present - as Jesus said “at hand” (or even translated as “in our midst”). Do you agree with this? Feel free to recall other scriptures not referenced here.
c) The kingdom of God and God’s dominion extends over all of creation - including also, specifically for our discussion purposes, all the earth and its inhabitants past, present and future (including worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures, civil government..etc.). The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it Psalm 24:1. Do you agree?
d) Among many things in His Word, God expresses many aspects of His will in regard to His kingdom. (see “a” above.) Agree?
Regarding point #2 - man’s relationship to the kingdom of God (God’s dominion or governance)
a) All men are subject to God’s Word, not just Christians or believers, but ALL MEN. Jesus quoted Deut 8:3... But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’” Mat 4:4....Do you agree with this?...and...do you agree that “it is a good thing” for man to be under the governance of God’s Word - knowing that it is essential to LIVING?
Summary:
OK - that’s it. I’m thinking point #2, a, pretty much sums it up...in that...
God’s Word is relevant and beneficial to all men throughout His dominion, including governors and public officials...and that man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government is a good thing. Do you agree?
Summary questions:
I.a. Do you think God desires recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government?
I.b. So then do you agree that it would be good to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?
I.c. Are unbelievers likely to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?
I.d. Who do you think God might call to do it? (here’s where I perceive you may get into this “will of God thing” - so please refer back to question I.a.)
OK thanks in advance should you decide to answer all of my inquiries. I’m really not trying to give you homework, but, it would be helpful for me to understand where you are coming from here - cause we seemingly both have regard for the bible.
Lastly, a couple perplexing questions, cause I just got to know:
How can you write:
“...the concept of “governing being serving” is your own and was never taught by Christ...” right after the reference to Matt 20:25??!!??!!??!! Did you read it?
You also wrote: “...And Matthew 20:25 has nothing at all to do with running a government but is simply a teaching on leadership and authority - in all avenues of life...” IS NOT CIVIL GOVERNMENT AN AVENUE OF LIFE??!!??!!?!
...and, in a very much related question:
Why do you keep referring to governing as “taking over governments and ruling over people” and “take over and run the government and rule over people” when Matt 20:25 was offered for your consideration.
Methinks, perhaps, you are just trying to jag my chain, no?
Agreed.
2) it appears we have different understanding regarding man’s relationship to the kingdom of God.
Agreed.
a) The kingdom of God (God’s dominion and governance) is very much a dominant theme of Christ’s teaching, as recorded in the bible. Do you agree? You may conduct a word search on “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” to see how prevalent this subject is.
Throughout the New Testament, the word “kingdom” is found 27 times. The phrase “kingdom of God” is found 75 times, and “kingdom of heaven,” 34 times. All are clearly one and the same. So, yes, Jesus' mention of His future Kingdom is dominant in the New Testament.
b) Along with the kingdom of God being everlasting into the future, the kingdom exists in the present - as Jesus said “at hand” (or even translated as “in our midst”). Do you agree with this? Feel free to recall other scriptures not referenced here.
No, I do not agree. Jesus said "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world... My kingdom is not of this realm.” (John 18:36). God also said that this present world and this age is Satan's kingdom: "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:2); "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out." (John 12:31); "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19); "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Jesus' kingdom is not the present age; it is a future kingdom which He will form and in which Satan will not be an issue.
c) The kingdom of God and God’s dominion extends over all of creation - including also, specifically for our discussion purposes, all the earth and its inhabitants past, present and future (including worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures, civil government..etc.). The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it Psalm 24:1. Do you agree?
I agree that God is in ultimate control of this present age. If God was not in ultimate control, there would be no life on this planet whatsoever. But worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures, and civil governments are made up of fallen, Godless, unrighteous men who are at enmity with God and do not recognize God's sovereignty and who violate the Word of God. Worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures and civil governments do not make up the kingdom of God.
d) Among many things in His Word, God expresses many aspects of His will in regard to His kingdom. (see “a” above.) Agree?
Scripture?
a) All men are subject to God’s Word, not just Christians or believers, but ALL MEN. Jesus quoted Deut 8:3... But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’” Mat 4:4....Do you agree with this?...and...do you agree that “it is a good thing” for man to be under the governance of God’s Word - knowing that it is essential to LIVING?
I agree with the Scripture and with the idea but the reality is is that 99% of the world does not acknowledge God's existence.
It would be a good thing for man to be under the governance of God's Word if that was the reality.
OK - that’s it. I’m thinking point #2, a, pretty much sums it up...in that... God’s Word is relevant and beneficial to all men throughout His dominion, including governors and public officials...and that man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government is a good thing. Do you agree?
I would agree if that were the reality in this fallen world. Unfortunately, there is no man-created government on the face of the earth that submits itself to God's Word in any way, shape, or form.
There will be no government institution in which man is involved that recognizes, respects, and obeys the Word of God until Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom.
I.a. Do you think God desires recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government?
Of course, but since God tells us that Satan is the god of this present age, recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government does not exist and will never exist as long as this age continues.
I.b. So then do you agree that it would be good to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?
I think it's a nice dream, but a dream that does not recognize the facts of what God tells us is the reality of this world we live in as it presently exists. This is a fallen world, and there will not be recognition, respect, and obedience to God's Word in civil government that is controlled by fallen man. Nor does God tell us to expect recognition, respect and obedience to His Word from fallen man in this present age.
I.c. Are unbelievers likely to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?
I'll just leave that as it is.
I.d. Who do you think God might call to do it? (here’s where I perceive you may get into this “will of God thing” - so please refer back to question I.a.)
No one. Nowhere did God ever tell us to concentrate on man-created governments which He does tell us will collapse, fail, and cease to exist. He tells us to witness to those who are lost, and win as many people as possible to His kingdom, which He tells us is not of this world.
All earthly governments as we know them are on borrowed time. As we see from the worldwide economic collapse, the house of cards known as man-made governments are already beginning to shatter.
“...the concept of “governing being serving” is your own and was never taught by Christ...” right after the reference to Matt 20:25??!!??!!??!! Did you read it?
I read it and addressed it in my response. It's not what you wanted to hear, so you obviously ignored it. The concept of "governing being serving" is not anything that was ever taught by Christ. That's just a fact.
Why do you keep referring to governing as “taking over governments and ruling over people” and “take over and run the government and rule over people” when Matt 20:25 was offered for your consideration.
Sigh. Because Matthew 20:25 is not about what you want it to be about. Matthew 20:25 is about leaders becoming servants. It is not Jesus giving some endorsement of Christians running governments. It's just that simple.
Methinks, perhaps, you are just trying to jag my chain, no?
Nope, not at all.
1.b) Along with the kingdom of God being everlasting into the future, the kingdom exists in the present - as Jesus said “at hand” (or even translated as “in our midst”).
There are many scriptures which are compatible with the 1.b statement. Please realize that I recognize the other numerous scriptures that speak of a future manifestation and establishment of the kingdom of God. However, I also recognize these following scriptures which I include for your consideration, scriptures which indicate characteristics of the kingdom beyond the 2000 plus years in the future manifestation of the kingdom.
Mat 12:28, Luk 11:20 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. This seems present tense to me...present at the time Jesus spoke it, not referring 2000 plus years in the future.
Luk 17:21 ...nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." "In your midst" means "within you"... this seems not to be referring to the 2000 plus years future Millenial kingdom. (As a side note: Jesus says prior to this, "the kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed" - how do you reconcile this?)
Jhn 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. "NOW" means "now" - check the context. Reconcile this with the exclusively 2000 plus years in the future view of the kingdom.
Mar 12:34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.Does this make sense if Jesus is exclusively talking about a kingdom 2000 plus years in the future?
Mar 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." You've got to get into some creative interpretation to disregard this one, but I think the language of Jesus is plainspoken here.
Jhn 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king..." Jesus says that He IS a king. Earlier He described, as you pointed out, a kingdom that is not of this world, not of this realm. I see no inconsistency with Jesus' "not of this realm" kingdom existing at the time He was questioned - in fact that is what He said and the way Pilate appeared to understood it.
I don't claim to know all about the kingdom of God, but, I see the scriptures indicating more about the matter than you seem to accept. Tell me this, are you in Satan's kingdom now or are you presently in the kingdom of God?
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Also, I am more perplexed than ever as to how you responded to the inquiry regarding Matthew 20:25. You wrote "The concept of "governing being serving" is not anything that was ever taught by Christ. That's just a fact. Here is the scripture again:
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
Mat 20:26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,..
Clearly Jesus is addressing the subject in the context of James and John wanting to sit with Jesus in His kingdom at His right and left. Apparently Jesus thought they were talking about ruling over others and exercising authority (governing) others, for, He brought up the way in which the Gentiles ruled over others. Then He spoke about serving as being the way to rank and greatness.
How do you say Jesus is not teaching about governing being serving? The apostles asked to govern with Him and He ended up talking about serving. I agree that one may apply the scripture to all manner of leadership, but, "governing being serving" is not a stretch and is not merely "what I want".
Also, I do not think this is principally an endorsement by Jesus for Christians to "take over governments" nor have I ever stated such, even though you continue to act as though I have. But, Jesus does not exclude or prohibit Christians from serving in civil government here as vehemently as you do - in fact He doesn't prohibit it at all.
And your idea that "...there is no man-created government on the face of the earth that submits itself to God's Word in any way, shape, or form... is perhaps true - I don't know about man-created governments- but, Romans 13 speaks of governing authorities who are established by God, referring to public servants as "servants of God" and "ministers of God".
OK, I've been at this a while and I'd like to wrap it here. I would, however, like to ask you two additional questions: What do you mean by salvation? and What is the gospel? Regards,
The "Kingdom of God" spoken of in this Scripture is not a literal, physical "Kingdom" that God put man in charge of establishing and administering. The "Kingdom of God", as Jesus talked about it and as it pertains to this present age, is the "Kingdom" to which all of those belong who have accepted Christ as their Savior and yielded their lives to Him. They are part of His "Kingdom"; which is the reality that will exist for all eternity after this present age is finished and Jesus reclaims His creation, lifts the curse which was put on it after the Fall, and restores it to it's original sinless splendor.
That is the "Kingdom" He is speaking of here. He is not telling us that He will have a "Kingdom" here on earth, before the Millennial Kingdom, that men will be responsible for running. That's not what these verses are about.
Luk 17:21 ...nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." "In your midst" means "within you"... this seems not to be referring to the 2000 plus years future Millenial kingdom.
The idea that the Kingdom of God is "within" all human beings is an dangerously erroneous understanding of this passage.
Here is the relevant Word, from the KJV and the RSV -- the KJV is the best known version from which such an idea can be dragged from the Word of the Lord:
Luke 17 (KJV)
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke.17 (RSV)
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them, The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; ] nor will they say, `Lo, here it is!' or `There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.
The phrase that captures our interest is the last one,
. . . the kingdom of God is within you. (KJV)
But from the RSV:
the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.
There are other versions. For example,
For the Kingdom of God is among you. (NLT)
The FNT has the same:
For behold the kingdom of God is among you.
As you can observe, the KJV expresses an idea that differs from either the RSV, the NLT or the FNT. Which of these more accurately renders the Word of Jesus?
The Greek word that he uttered is entos. If one follows the only other use of this word by Jesus, Matt. 23:36, we will have to select the KJV:
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
It would not make sense to read, "among the cup and the platter" because both are singular nouns. He must mean "within the cup and the platter." However, in the case of Luke 17:21, the pronoun that follows entos is plural. If Matthew 23:16 were to read "cups and platters," among or in the midst of would make as make as much sense as within.
So it is with Luke 17:21; the "you" following entos in the Greek is plural. This, on observation, is confirmed in any case by the fact that the context has him answering Pharisees (plural) -- also designated them. But one must also observe that within also works with the plural. It is correct usage to say, within the cups and the platters. That also makes sense.
It has been determined that either within, among, or, in the midst of are suited to this statement by the Lord. Did the Lord tell them (and us) that the kingdom was within them, among them, or in the midst of them?
There is a way to determine which of these he means, without a doubt. We need only examine the persons being addressed to determine which is suited to them. He is addressing the Pharisees, so the question we must ask is: does Jesus mean for us to understand that the kingdom of God is within (inside of) the Pharisees? If not, then he must mean that it is among or in the midst of them. We further stipulate here, to avoid any misunderstanding, that Jesus refers in these texts to the individual human heart.
Just recall that he is speaking to the Pharisees in Luke 17:21 and to none other. Now, back up in that gospel to read the Lord's evaluation of what was in their hearts. Remember, this is the very same persons, the Pharisees, which he addresses in Luke 17:21. The narrative places this earlier encounter shortly before the verse we are examining. We find this in Luke 16:14,15 (FNT):
Now the Pharisees being philia-lovers of money heard all these things, and were ridiculing him. And he said to them: You are those justifying yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts, for the thing exalted among men is an abomination before God.
Can the kingdom of God reside in those hearts? God knows their hearts, and he finds only abomination there.
There is more. We have this from Luke 11:39(FNT):
So the Lord said to him: Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and the dish, but the inside of you is full of robbery and wickedness.
Conclusion: When Jesus addressed the Pharisees, he was not addressing people who had any relation with the kingdom of God. He said of them, first,
Inside you are full of extortion and wickedness.
Then, later:
God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Now, go back to his only other use of entos as presented above (Matt. 23:26):
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within (entos) the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
It is simple; the only things inside or within (entos) the Pharisees were:
extortion and wickedness
abomination in the sight of God.
It can be confidentially stated that this version, the kingdom of God is within you (KJV), is erroneous. It plants an evil seed -- a seed that has sprung up and multiplied throughout Christendom where so many believe that the kingdom is within the hearts of those Pharisees -- and themselves.
The kingdom was not in those Pharisees, but were they in the kingdom?
Matt. 5:20 (FNT)
For I say to you that unless your justice abounds more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
These persons, the Pharisees, were not in the kingdom, not was the kingdom in them! They had no relation to the kingdom of God.
There is but one Relation to the Kingdom.
Jesus never speaks of the kingdom being inside of anyone. That is vitally significant, because it reveals something about the nature of the kingdom that was the focus of his gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom. So, did he speak of others entering into the kingdom? Many times!
Matt. 5 (FNT)
For I say to you that unless your justice abounds more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
Matt. 7 (FNT)
Not everyone saying to me: Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my father who is in the heavens.
Matt. 18 (FNT)
Truly I say to you, unless you turn and become as the child, you will not enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
Matt. 19 (FNT):
Truly I say to you that the rich hardly enter into the kingdom of the heavens. But again I say to you it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for the rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mark 9 (FNT):
And if your eye stumble you, cast it out, for it is good that one-eyed you enter into the kingdom of God than having two eyes be thrown into Gehenna, . . ..
Mark 10 (FNT):
How difficulty will those having possessions enter into the kingdom of God. But his disciples were being amazed at his words. But Jesus again answering says to them: Children, How difficult it is for those trusting upon possessions to enter into the kingdom of God. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 18 (FNT):
How difficulty those having possessions enter into the kingdom of God. For it is easier for a camel to enter through a needle hole than for the rich to enter into the kingdom of God.
John 8 (FNT):
Nicodemus says to him: How is a man able to be born when he is old? Is he able to enter into his mother's womb a second time and be born? 5 Jesus answered: Truly truly I say to you, if someone not be born out of water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
It is simple: the kingdom is not inside of anyone. If one has a relation to the kingdom, then that one is inside the kingdom. Prior exposure to false doctrine renders one blind to many aspects of the Word, and Luke 17:21,22 is an excellent example of this blindness in action. A lifetime spent in Christendom, being exposed to the idea of the kingdom being within you, makes it difficult to see the fallacy of it.
(As a side note: Jesus says prior to this, "the kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed" - how do you reconcile this?)
Luke 17:20-37 is the first discourse on the end of the age; 21:5-38 is the second discourse, the one that matches most of the Matthew and Mark texts.
In Luke 17:20-21, Jesus wants it to be unmistakably clear that the kingdom program is inextricably tied to Him.
The first portion of the discourse is a response to the Pharisees. They wanted to know when the kingdom of God is coming. Jesus explains that the kingdom does not come "with signs to be observed, nor will people say, `Here it is,' or `There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst." This reply would seem to suggest the immediacy of the kingdom's presence.
But Jesus challenges that premise. The kingdom does not come "with observation." Jesus argues that the kingdom's coming does not require apocalyptic observation, since that was the normal expectation. The initial phase of the kingdom does not come that way.
Why? Because "the kingdom of God is in your midst." This phrase is one of the most discussed in Luke's Gospel. It is one of the few statements of Jesus that puts the kingdom in the present. In fact, so unprecedented is this statement that some argue the idea is really futuristic. The idea is, The kingdom is as good as present, since I am here. You need not miss it when it comes.
But a futuristic meaning is unlikely in this particular passage taken in it's true context. The verb that normally takes a futuristic present is erchomai, not eimi, which is the verb in verse 21. Thus Luke's shift of verbs in this context is significant, as is his shift of tenses. Moreover, the verb is placed in an emphatic position in the Greek text. More important, the remark about signs in verses 20-21 is specifically denied if a future sense exists, for Jesus appears to go on and enumerate the signs! It is better to interpret this phrase as referring to the initial coming now with a consummation to come later. Then Jesus' reply is, "You do not need to look for the kingdom in signs, because its King (and so its presence) is right before you. But its display in comprehensive power will come visibly to all one day. You will not need to hunt to find it then."
When Jesus says it is "in your midst," He does not mean in one's heart. Jesus is speaking to Pharisees who have rejected Him. They do not have the kingdom in their hearts. And nowhere else in the New Testament is the kingdom described as an internal entity. He must mean something else here.
There are two possibilities. Jesus could mean "in your grasp or power." The kingdom's presence is related to one's ability to repent. A factor against this view is that it appears to be a nonanswer. To say the kingdom is within your grasp is not to say where it is or how you can get it--at least not very explicitly. In contrast to such vagueness, the second possibility is that the kingdom is "in your midst"--that is, "in your presence." It is present in Jesus, so He and it stand before you. You do not have to look for it, because it is right before your face! This answer is very much like 7:22-23 and 11:20. It also fits the time perspective of 7:28 and 16:16, as well as the explicit declarations of current fulfillment in 4:16-23.
Now some may challenge by arguing that Jesus is saying He is present but the kingdom is not. But that approach makes no sense here. Why would Jesus mention His personal presence in distinction from the kingdom's and then use an expression that mentions the kingdom? The whole point is to discuss the kingdom, not just Him. The Pharisees know Jesus is present, and they know He claims to bring the time of fulfillment, so they are asking where the kingdom is. Jesus' reply is that the kingdom program comes with him, even in the present.
The program of God's reclamation of creation starts and stops with Jesus. Signs are not necessary for the kingdom which consists of believers in Him because Jesus is the sign. As the entire discourse shows, the kingdom has an "already-not yet" character. Luke 1:67-79, Acts 2:25-36, Romans 1:2-4 with 16:25-27, 1 Corinthians 15:25, Ephesians 1:18-23, Colossians 1:12-14, Hebrews 1:5-13, 1 Peter 2:4-10 and Revelation 1:6-8 share this two-phased kingdom perspective. Efforts to tie the presence-of-the-kingdom language of the New Testament to the ongoing presence of God's universal kingdom fail, since the context of these kingdom texts is an announcement of the arrival of something that previously was missing.
So, as we see from the Scripture in context, we know that Jesus was saying that He is the Kingdom; that there was no need for signs at that time to see the Kingdom. The Kingdom was right in front of them.
Jhn 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. "NOW" means "now" - check the context. Reconcile this with the exclusively 2000 plus years in the future view of the kingdom.
What is the judgment of this world which Jesus says is at hand? Compare 3:19-21. As it is the response of men to the Light which has come into the world that provokes judgment, so the actions of men in crucifying him who was that Light constitute the judgment of this world. What they are about to do to him will confirm their judgment.
And "now the ruler of this world will be cast out", taken in proper context, refers to Satan’s loss of authority over this world. This is in principle rather than in immediate fact, since 1 John 5:19 states that the whole world still lies in the power of the evil one. In an absolute sense the reference is proleptic. The coming of Jesus’ hour (his crucifixion, death, resurrection, and exaltation to the Father) marks the end of Satan’s domain and brings about his defeat, even though that defeat has not been ultimately worked out in history yet and awaits the consummation of the age. The final defeat of Satan will occur at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, when Satan is released from hell for a short time to foment rebellion against Jesus Christ among people living at that time, and then is relegated to hell for all eternity.
Mar 12:34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.Does this make sense if Jesus is exclusively talking about a kingdom 2000 plus years in the future?
This verse simply means that the man's answer to Jesus demonstrated that he replied according to the truth of the Gospel of Christ, and that the fact that the man knew the truth of what Christ had been preaching and believed it over the old Law meant that he was close to being in the "Kingdom of God", that is, the Kingdom which includes all those who know Christ as Savior and who know and love and believe His Word and submit themselves to His laws and ordinances, and commandments.
That passage refers to the present incarnation of the "Kingdom of God"; that is, a kingdom not of this world but a kingdom which consists of all those who have accepted Christ's free gift of salvation.
Mar 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." You've got to get into some creative interpretation to disregard this one, but I think the language of Jesus is plainspoken here.
Now let's put that verse in context so we can see what it really is all about:
1And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."
Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them;
and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.
Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; let us make three tabernacles, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
For he did not know what to answer; for they became terrified.
Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
So, yes, the language of Jesus was plainspoken and the people to whom He was speaking did see the literal Kingdom of Heaven at Jesus' transfiguration. The transfiguration was what Jesus was talking about in this passage, and the passage was fulfilled when the disciples who were with Him witnessed His personal appearance being changed into a glorified form, and His clothing become dazzling white. Moses and Elijah, who had died thousands of years before and were already in Heaven, appeared and talked with Jesus about His death that would soon take place.
The purpose of the transfiguration of Christ into at least a part of His heavenly glory was so that the “inner circle” of His disciples could gain a greater understanding of who Jesus was. Christ underwent a dramatic change in appearance in order that the disciples could behold Him in His glory. The disciples, who had only known Him in His human body, now had a greater realization of the deity of Christ, though they could not fully comprehend it. That gave them the reassurance they needed after hearing the shocking news of His coming death.
Jhn 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king..." Jesus says that He IS a king. Earlier He described, as you pointed out, a kingdom that is not of this world, not of this realm. I see no inconsistency with Jesus' "not of this realm" kingdom existing at the time He was questioned - in fact that is what He said and the way Pilate appeared to understood it.
There is no inconsistency. Pilate questioned Jesus as to whether He was a King, and Jesus replied that, indeed, He is a King.
And yes, Jesus said that His kingdom is "not of this world", and there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that that statement changed at any moment in time. Jesus' kingdom consists of those who have chosen to become part of His kingdom through salvation and acceptance of Him as Savior, and the future earthly kingdom, which Jesus Himself will establish, which will last for 1000 years.
I don't claim to know all about the kingdom of God, but, I see the scriptures indicating more about the matter than you seem to accept. Tell me this, are you in Satan's kingdom now or are you presently in the kingdom of God?
But every one of the Scriptures you have posted as some sort of validation of your belief that Christians are supposed to govern over people in this present age have a completely opposite meaning to what you have assigned them. None of the Scriptures you have quoted give even the slightest hint that God wants Christians to infiltrate the governments of fallen men, of which He has no part, and which are in the process of collapsing, and rule over people.
Am I part of Satan's kingdom or Christ's kingdom? Since I know Christ as my Savior, and since I have turned my life over to Him and accept His lordship over my will and my life, I am most assuredly a part of Christ's kingdom.
Also, I am more perplexed than ever as to how you responded to the inquiry regarding Matthew 20:25. You wrote "The concept of "governing being serving" is not anything that was ever taught by Christ. That's just a fact. Here is the scripture again:
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
Mat 20:26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,..
Clearly Jesus is addressing the subject in the context of James and John wanting to sit with Jesus in His kingdom at His right and left. Apparently Jesus thought they were talking about ruling over others and exercising authority (governing) others, for, He brought up the way in which the Gentiles ruled over others. Then He spoke about serving as being the way to rank and greatness.
And, yet again, you attempted to use that Scripture to justify your belief that Jesus desires Christians to go into government and rule over people and I pointed out that this passage, along with all the others you posted, cannot even remotely be read to mean that Christ wants Christians to rule over other people. These verses are about leaders becoming servants, not for the purpose of achieving "greatness" in this life, which will not happen, but for the purpose of being counted as "great" in the Kingdom to come - after this world as we know it presently has passed away.
Also, I do not think this is principally an endorsement by Jesus for Christians to "take over governments" nor have I ever stated such, even though you continue to act as though I have. But, Jesus does not exclude or prohibit Christians from serving in civil government here as vehemently as you do - in fact He doesn't prohibit it at all.
And, like I said before, it may be God's will for some Christians to work in some capacity in some governmental agency, but nowhere does the Scripture exist that Jesus tells Christians to insert themselves into the government to "change" the government, or "make it better", or any other such nonsense which cannot be justified with any Scripture.
but, Romans 13 speaks of governing authorities who are established by God, referring to public servants as "servants of God" and "ministers of God".
Any person in a man-created government is there because God has allowed that person to rule. All authorities which exist are ordained by God. They may not all be God-honoring authorities, but God is sovereign over their being where they are. He can bring them down if He wills, and He can lift another up if He so desires.
All man-made governments are temporal, and are subject to the purposes of God, even if they don't know it and and don't acknowledge it.
Man-made governments are temporary and will all eventually fail and collapse and cease to exist.
What do you mean by salvation? and What is the gospel?
The word “salvation” as it relates to "knowing Christ as Savior" concerns an eternal, spiritual deliverance. When Paul told the Philippian jailer what he must do to be saved, he was referring to the jailer’s eternal destiny (Acts 16:30-31). Jesus equated being saved with entering the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:24-25).
What are we saved from? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, we are saved from “wrath,” that is, from God’s judgment of sin (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9). Our sin has separated us from God, and the consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Biblical salvation refers to our deliverance from the consequence of sin and therefore involves the removal of sin.
Who does the saving? Only God can remove sin and deliver us from sin’s penalty (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5).
How does God save? In the Christian doctrine of salvation, God has rescued us through Christ (John 3:17). Specifically, it was Jesus’ death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that achieved our salvation (Romans 5:10; Ephesians 1:7). Scripture is clear that salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God (Ephesians 2:5, 8) and is only available through faith in Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).
How do we receive salvation? We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the gospel—the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13). Then, we must believe—fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God’s conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.” Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12) and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.
Christ tells us that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven without salvation:
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7)
Without salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, we cannot be reconciled to Him, we cannot have a personal relationship with Him, we cannot be seen as guilt-free in the eyes of the Father, and we will spend all eternity separated from Him, suffering the punishment for our sin that Jesus went to the cross to take on Himself so that our faith and belief in the fact that He did suffer the punishment that we deserve and paid our sin debt in full means we can be restored as His children and we can have eternal life, with Him, in His kingdom.
The Gospel is the good news that God saves sinners. Man is by nature sinful and separated from God with no hope of remedying that situation. But God, by His power, provided the means of man’s redemption in the death, burial and resurrection of the Savior, Jesus Christ. The word “gospel” literally means “good news.” But to truly comprehend how good this news is, we must first understand the bad news. As a result of the fall of man in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:6), every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. Because of man’s sinful nature, he does not and cannot seek God. He has no desire to come to God and, in fact, his mind is hostile toward God (Romans 8:7). God has declared that man’s sin dooms him to an eternity in hell, separated from God. It is in hell that man pays the penalty of sin against a holy and righteous God. This would be bad news indeed if there were no remedy.
But in the gospel, God, in His mercy, has provided that remedy, a substitute for us—Jesus Christ—who came to pay the penalty for our sin by His sacrifice on the cross. This is the essence of the gospel which Paul preached to the Corinthians. In 1 Corinthians 15:2-4, he explains the three elements of the gospel—the death, burial and resurrection of Christ on our behalf. Our old nature died with Christ on the cross and was buried with Him. Then we were resurrected with Him to a new life (Romans 6:4-8). Paul tells us to “hold firmly” to this true gospel, the only one which saves. Believing in any other gospel is to believe in vain. In Romans 1:16-17, Paul also declares that the true gospel is the “power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” by which he means that salvation is not achieved by man’s efforts, but by the grace of God through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Because of the Gospel, through the power of God, those who believe in Christ (Romans 10:9) are not just saved from hell. We are, in fact, given a completely new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17) with a changed heart and a new desire, will, and attitude that are manifested in good works. This is the fruit the Holy Spirit produces in us by His power. Works are never the means of salvation, but they are the proof of it (Ephesians 2:10). Those who are saved by the power of God will always show the evidence of salvation by a changed life.
Yo, what’s up? - I’ve been occupied with “life matters” the past week, but, I am pleased that you have offered some further discourse on the subject of whether God would have men to obey His word in every area of existence - civil government included.
It seems that you are willing to answer “yes, God would have men to obey His word in every area of existence - civil government included”. Is that accurate? Never mind for the moment that you state it will never happen and that it is vain pursuit. I simply want to look at it from the perspective of the “Great Commission” (teaching the nations to obey all of God’s commands in the Bible applicable for today), the second and third petitions of the “Lord’s Prayer” and God’s stated instruction to humanity at the creation ...ie. People have been given responsibility (or “dominion,” Gen. 1:28) over the earth to “subdue” it by cultivating, developing, and managing it in a way that meets human needs, takes care of the earth as a resource, and brings glory to God (see “People at Work” at Ps. 8:6) - the last part of this was copied from:
http://www.urbana.org/word-in-life-study-bible/the-creation-mandate
Anyway, you have in your recent post clarified that there IS A PRESENT manifestation of the kingdom, and you characterize it as being “the “Kingdom” to which all of those belong who have accepted Christ as their Savior and yielded their lives to Him.” Awesome - no disagreement there.
You also state that:”it may be God’s will for some Christians to work in some capacity in some governmental agency...” and yes, you stated that previously, as well, and I’d like to acknowledge my agreement with that portion of your statement.
...unfortunately you do go on and beat on the straw man again - the straw man being your characterization of 1) obedience to God in serving others, 2) exercising godly leadership, 3) and faithful stewardship of the earth as being for the purpose to “... “change” the government, or “make it better”, or any other such nonsense which cannot be justified with any Scripture...”
Look, if it gives you some comfort, don’t be concerned of the outcome of 1) obedience to God in serving others, 2) exercising godly leadership, 3) and faithful stewardship of the earth - just do it - as God commands. And don’t speak discouragement on those who aspire to 1) obedience to God in serving others, 2) exercising godly leadership, 3) and faithful stewardship of the earth.
Just because you don’t believe anything good will come of it doesn’t mean we should not obey God’s commands. Just because you think 99% of humanity is an enemy of God (you may even be correct) does not negate the “never revoked” creation mandate of God Almighty. Elijah also despaired that he was the only one left who served God and God pretty much rebuked him, saying, (KMJames paraphrase) ...Elijah, you don’t know SQUAT - get moving - I got people, 6000 of them, that you know nothing about -now be a man and be about My business...
Listen - God has a remnant that you don’t know the size of - somewhere along the lines Abraham’s descendants end up as numerous as the stars above and the sand on the sea shore - and it’s not up to you to decide the limits of God’s influence in the earth.
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Also regarding your comments related to the scriptures I mentioned when attempting to address your earlier statement in post 95 that “...it is a future kingdom which He will form” and that you disagreed that the kingdom exists in the present...(which you clarified later to some extent in post 97), let me say:
- your lengthy critique of the danger of the “kingdom in you” belief was quite interesting in that I was not aware of any great controversy regarding this matter. I’m thinking then that you would have some interpretation of “Christ in you, the hope of glory” as really being “Christ WITH you, the hope of glory”. I’m not sure how you deal with the INdwelling of the Holy Spirit or the concept that the water of life becomes “in us” a “well of water springing up into eternal life”.
Anyway, it is interesting that this concerns you...what would you say are the ramifications of one believing that Christ or the Spirit of God dwells in the believer?
Also, curiously, when Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom from the beginning of His public ministry was He articulating His crucifixion and resurrection? It seems that He wasn’t - otherwise the disciples would have picked up on it earlier in the three years of His teaching. No real point here other than to say the gospel that Jesus preached must have encompassed more than what is sometimes referred to as the “plan of salvation”. Do you agree?
Absolutely. It would be like a gift from heaven.
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