Replies

I’ve had some time to consider your post 92 and would like to streamline some comments to address what seem to be two main issues of contention in our discussion. This does not mean that I have no comments to the information and link you provided in response to my request regarding your end time beliefs and I hope to review it in more depth and comment soon.

However, my thinking is that unless some consensus can be attained on these two main points which I believe lie at the heart of our discussion, we are unlikely to benefit much from addressing related matters. (I recognize this is only my opinion and I am willing to consider a different perspective regarding the dynamics and benefits of our discussion should you see things differently.) With this stated up front I will proceed to the two main points.

1) it appears we have different understanding regarding the kingdom of God, and

2) it appears we have different understanding regarding man’s relationship to the kingdom of God.

Regarding my point #1, the kingdom of God:

a) The kingdom of God (God’s dominion and governance) is very much a dominant theme of Christ’s teaching, as recorded in the bible. Do you agree? You may conduct a word search on “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” to see how prevalent this subject is.

b) Along with the kingdom of God being everlasting into the future, the kingdom exists in the present - as Jesus said “at hand” (or even translated as “in our midst”). Do you agree with this? Feel free to recall other scriptures not referenced here.

c) The kingdom of God and God’s dominion extends over all of creation - including also, specifically for our discussion purposes, all the earth and its inhabitants past, present and future (including worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures, civil government..etc.). The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it Psalm 24:1. Do you agree?

d) Among many things in His Word, God expresses many aspects of His will in regard to His kingdom. (see “a” above.) Agree?

Regarding point #2 - man’s relationship to the kingdom of God (God’s dominion or governance)

a) All men are subject to God’s Word, not just Christians or believers, but ALL MEN. Jesus quoted Deut 8:3... But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’” Mat 4:4....Do you agree with this?...and...do you agree that “it is a good thing” for man to be under the governance of God’s Word - knowing that it is essential to LIVING?

Summary:

OK - that’s it. I’m thinking point #2, a, pretty much sums it up...in that...
God’s Word is relevant and beneficial to all men throughout His dominion, including governors and public officials...and that man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government is a good thing. Do you agree?

Summary questions:
I.a. Do you think God desires recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government?

I.b. So then do you agree that it would be good to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?

I.c. Are unbelievers likely to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?

I.d. Who do you think God might call to do it? (here’s where I perceive you may get into this “will of God thing” - so please refer back to question I.a.)

OK thanks in advance should you decide to answer all of my inquiries. I’m really not trying to give you homework, but, it would be helpful for me to understand where you are coming from here - cause we seemingly both have regard for the bible.

Lastly, a couple perplexing questions, cause I just got to know:
How can you write:
“...the concept of “governing being serving” is your own and was never taught by Christ...” right after the reference to Matt 20:25??!!??!!??!! Did you read it?

You also wrote: “...And Matthew 20:25 has nothing at all to do with running a government but is simply a teaching on leadership and authority - in all avenues of life...” IS NOT CIVIL GOVERNMENT AN AVENUE OF LIFE??!!??!!?!

...and, in a very much related question:

Why do you keep referring to governing as “taking over governments and ruling over people” and “take over and run the government and rule over people” when Matt 20:25 was offered for your consideration.

Methinks, perhaps, you are just trying to jag my chain, no?

1) it appears we have different understanding regarding the kingdom of God,

Agreed.

2) it appears we have different understanding regarding man’s relationship to the kingdom of God.

Agreed.

Throughout the New Testament, the word “kingdom” is found 27 times. The phrase “kingdom of God” is found 75 times, and “kingdom of heaven,” 34 times. All are clearly one and the same. So, yes, Jesus' mention of His future Kingdom is dominant in the New Testament.

No, I do not agree. Jesus said "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world... My kingdom is not of this realm.” (John 18:36). God also said that this present world and this age is Satan's kingdom: "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:2); "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out." (John 12:31); "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19); "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4).

Jesus' kingdom is not the present age; it is a future kingdom which He will form and in which Satan will not be an issue.

I agree that God is in ultimate control of this present age. If God was not in ultimate control, there would be no life on this planet whatsoever. But worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures, and civil governments are made up of fallen, Godless, unrighteous men who are at enmity with God and do not recognize God's sovereignty and who violate the Word of God. Worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures and civil governments do not make up the kingdom of God.

d) Among many things in His Word, God expresses many aspects of His will in regard to His kingdom. (see “a” above.) Agree?

Scripture?

I agree with the Scripture and with the idea but the reality is is that 99% of the world does not acknowledge God's existence.

It would be a good thing for man to be under the governance of God's Word if that was the reality.

OK - that’s it. I’m thinking point #2, a, pretty much sums it up...in that... God’s Word is relevant and beneficial to all men throughout His dominion, including governors and public officials...and that man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government is a good thing. Do you agree?

I would agree if that were the reality in this fallen world. Unfortunately, there is no man-created government on the face of the earth that submits itself to God's Word in any way, shape, or form.

There will be no government institution in which man is involved that recognizes, respects, and obeys the Word of God until Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom.

I.a. Do you think God desires recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government?

Of course, but since God tells us that Satan is the god of this present age, recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government does not exist and will never exist as long as this age continues.

I.b. So then do you agree that it would be good to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?

I think it's a nice dream, but a dream that does not recognize the facts of what God tells us is the reality of this world we live in as it presently exists. This is a fallen world, and there will not be recognition, respect, and obedience to God's Word in civil government that is controlled by fallen man. Nor does God tell us to expect recognition, respect and obedience to His Word from fallen man in this present age.

I.c. Are unbelievers likely to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?

I'll just leave that as it is.

I.d. Who do you think God might call to do it? (here’s where I perceive you may get into this “will of God thing” - so please refer back to question I.a.)

No one. Nowhere did God ever tell us to concentrate on man-created governments which He does tell us will collapse, fail, and cease to exist. He tells us to witness to those who are lost, and win as many people as possible to His kingdom, which He tells us is not of this world.

All earthly governments as we know them are on borrowed time. As we see from the worldwide economic collapse, the house of cards known as man-made governments are already beginning to shatter.

“...the concept of “governing being serving” is your own and was never taught by Christ...” right after the reference to Matt 20:25??!!??!!??!! Did you read it?

I read it and addressed it in my response. It's not what you wanted to hear, so you obviously ignored it. The concept of "governing being serving" is not anything that was ever taught by Christ. That's just a fact.

Sigh. Because Matthew 20:25 is not about what you want it to be about. Matthew 20:25 is about leaders becoming servants. It is not Jesus giving some endorsement of Christians running governments. It's just that simple.

Methinks, perhaps, you are just trying to jag my chain, no?

Nope, not at all.