Agreed.
2) it appears we have different understanding regarding man’s relationship to the kingdom of God.
Agreed.
a) The kingdom of God (God’s dominion and governance) is very much a dominant theme of Christ’s teaching, as recorded in the bible. Do you agree? You may conduct a word search on “kingdom of God” or “kingdom of heaven” to see how prevalent this subject is.
Throughout the New Testament, the word “kingdom” is found 27 times. The phrase “kingdom of God” is found 75 times, and “kingdom of heaven,” 34 times. All are clearly one and the same. So, yes, Jesus' mention of His future Kingdom is dominant in the New Testament.
b) Along with the kingdom of God being everlasting into the future, the kingdom exists in the present - as Jesus said “at hand” (or even translated as “in our midst”). Do you agree with this? Feel free to recall other scriptures not referenced here.
No, I do not agree. Jesus said "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world... My kingdom is not of this realm.” (John 18:36). God also said that this present world and this age is Satan's kingdom: "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient" (Ephesians 2:2); "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out." (John 12:31); "We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one." (1 John 5:19); "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4).
Jesus' kingdom is not the present age; it is a future kingdom which He will form and in which Satan will not be an issue.
c) The kingdom of God and God’s dominion extends over all of creation - including also, specifically for our discussion purposes, all the earth and its inhabitants past, present and future (including worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures, civil government..etc.). The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains, The world, and those who dwell in it Psalm 24:1. Do you agree?
I agree that God is in ultimate control of this present age. If God was not in ultimate control, there would be no life on this planet whatsoever. But worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures, and civil governments are made up of fallen, Godless, unrighteous men who are at enmity with God and do not recognize God's sovereignty and who violate the Word of God. Worldly kingdoms, institutions, cultures and civil governments do not make up the kingdom of God.
d) Among many things in His Word, God expresses many aspects of His will in regard to His kingdom. (see “a” above.) Agree?
Scripture?
a) All men are subject to God’s Word, not just Christians or believers, but ALL MEN. Jesus quoted Deut 8:3... But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’” Mat 4:4....Do you agree with this?...and...do you agree that “it is a good thing” for man to be under the governance of God’s Word - knowing that it is essential to LIVING?
I agree with the Scripture and with the idea but the reality is is that 99% of the world does not acknowledge God's existence.
It would be a good thing for man to be under the governance of God's Word if that was the reality.
OK - that’s it. I’m thinking point #2, a, pretty much sums it up...in that... God’s Word is relevant and beneficial to all men throughout His dominion, including governors and public officials...and that man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government is a good thing. Do you agree?
I would agree if that were the reality in this fallen world. Unfortunately, there is no man-created government on the face of the earth that submits itself to God's Word in any way, shape, or form.
There will be no government institution in which man is involved that recognizes, respects, and obeys the Word of God until Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom.
I.a. Do you think God desires recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government?
Of course, but since God tells us that Satan is the god of this present age, recognition, respect and obedience to His Word in civil government does not exist and will never exist as long as this age continues.
I.b. So then do you agree that it would be good to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?
I think it's a nice dream, but a dream that does not recognize the facts of what God tells us is the reality of this world we live in as it presently exists. This is a fallen world, and there will not be recognition, respect, and obedience to God's Word in civil government that is controlled by fallen man. Nor does God tell us to expect recognition, respect and obedience to His Word from fallen man in this present age.
I.c. Are unbelievers likely to encourage man’s recognition, respect and obedience to God’s Word in civil government?
I'll just leave that as it is.
I.d. Who do you think God might call to do it? (here’s where I perceive you may get into this “will of God thing” - so please refer back to question I.a.)
No one. Nowhere did God ever tell us to concentrate on man-created governments which He does tell us will collapse, fail, and cease to exist. He tells us to witness to those who are lost, and win as many people as possible to His kingdom, which He tells us is not of this world.
All earthly governments as we know them are on borrowed time. As we see from the worldwide economic collapse, the house of cards known as man-made governments are already beginning to shatter.
“...the concept of “governing being serving” is your own and was never taught by Christ...” right after the reference to Matt 20:25??!!??!!??!! Did you read it?
I read it and addressed it in my response. It's not what you wanted to hear, so you obviously ignored it. The concept of "governing being serving" is not anything that was ever taught by Christ. That's just a fact.
Why do you keep referring to governing as “taking over governments and ruling over people” and “take over and run the government and rule over people” when Matt 20:25 was offered for your consideration.
Sigh. Because Matthew 20:25 is not about what you want it to be about. Matthew 20:25 is about leaders becoming servants. It is not Jesus giving some endorsement of Christians running governments. It's just that simple.
Methinks, perhaps, you are just trying to jag my chain, no?
Nope, not at all.
1.b) Along with the kingdom of God being everlasting into the future, the kingdom exists in the present - as Jesus said “at hand” (or even translated as “in our midst”).
There are many scriptures which are compatible with the 1.b statement. Please realize that I recognize the other numerous scriptures that speak of a future manifestation and establishment of the kingdom of God. However, I also recognize these following scriptures which I include for your consideration, scriptures which indicate characteristics of the kingdom beyond the 2000 plus years in the future manifestation of the kingdom.
Mat 12:28, Luk 11:20 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. This seems present tense to me...present at the time Jesus spoke it, not referring 2000 plus years in the future.
Luk 17:21 ...nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." "In your midst" means "within you"... this seems not to be referring to the 2000 plus years future Millenial kingdom. (As a side note: Jesus says prior to this, "the kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed" - how do you reconcile this?)
Jhn 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. "NOW" means "now" - check the context. Reconcile this with the exclusively 2000 plus years in the future view of the kingdom.
Mar 12:34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.Does this make sense if Jesus is exclusively talking about a kingdom 2000 plus years in the future?
Mar 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." You've got to get into some creative interpretation to disregard this one, but I think the language of Jesus is plainspoken here.
Jhn 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king..." Jesus says that He IS a king. Earlier He described, as you pointed out, a kingdom that is not of this world, not of this realm. I see no inconsistency with Jesus' "not of this realm" kingdom existing at the time He was questioned - in fact that is what He said and the way Pilate appeared to understood it.
I don't claim to know all about the kingdom of God, but, I see the scriptures indicating more about the matter than you seem to accept. Tell me this, are you in Satan's kingdom now or are you presently in the kingdom of God?
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Also, I am more perplexed than ever as to how you responded to the inquiry regarding Matthew 20:25. You wrote "The concept of "governing being serving" is not anything that was ever taught by Christ. That's just a fact. Here is the scripture again:
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them.
Mat 20:26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,..
Clearly Jesus is addressing the subject in the context of James and John wanting to sit with Jesus in His kingdom at His right and left. Apparently Jesus thought they were talking about ruling over others and exercising authority (governing) others, for, He brought up the way in which the Gentiles ruled over others. Then He spoke about serving as being the way to rank and greatness.
How do you say Jesus is not teaching about governing being serving? The apostles asked to govern with Him and He ended up talking about serving. I agree that one may apply the scripture to all manner of leadership, but, "governing being serving" is not a stretch and is not merely "what I want".
Also, I do not think this is principally an endorsement by Jesus for Christians to "take over governments" nor have I ever stated such, even though you continue to act as though I have. But, Jesus does not exclude or prohibit Christians from serving in civil government here as vehemently as you do - in fact He doesn't prohibit it at all.
And your idea that "...there is no man-created government on the face of the earth that submits itself to God's Word in any way, shape, or form... is perhaps true - I don't know about man-created governments- but, Romans 13 speaks of governing authorities who are established by God, referring to public servants as "servants of God" and "ministers of God".
OK, I've been at this a while and I'd like to wrap it here. I would, however, like to ask you two additional questions: What do you mean by salvation? and What is the gospel? Regards,