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Life On Gold Plates - (LDS) Open
http://lifeongoldplates.blogspot.com/2008/08/bushmans-introduction-to-joseph-smith.html ^ | August 14, 2008 | Richard Bushman

Posted on 08/15/2008 1:47:27 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

August 14, 2008

Bushman's Introduction to "Joseph Smith and His Critics" Seminar

The following is Richard Bushman's introduction to the 2008 summer seminar, “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” given July 29, 2008. I also have a poor mp3 recording of the paper and in the next week or so I plan on blogging any additions Bushman made in reading the paper to the group. For my thoughts on the seminar in general, see "Preliminary Thoughts on the 2008 Bushman Seminar," and "Follow-up Thoughts on the 2008 Bushman Seminar." For notes on the presentations themselves, see Juvenile Instructor's "Notes on the 2008 Bushman Seminar," parts one and two.

Introduction
Richard Bushman

Increasingly teachers and church leaders at all levels are approached by Latter-day Saints who have lost confidence in Joseph Smith and the basic miraculous events of church history. They doubt the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, many of Joseph’s revelations, and much besides. They fall into doubt after going on the Internet and finding shocking information about Joseph Smith based on documents and facts they had never heard before. A surprising number had not known about Joseph Smith’s plural wives. They are set back by differences in the various accounts of the First Vision. They find that Egyptologists do not translate the Abraham manuscripts the way Joseph Smith did, making it appear that the Book of Abraham was a fabrication. When they come across this information in a critical book or read it on one of the innumerable critical Internet sites, they feel as if they had been introduced to a Joseph Smith and a Church history they had never known before. They undergo an experience like viewing the famous picture of a beautiful woman who in a blink of an eye turns into an old hag. Everything changes. What are they to believe?

Often church leaders, parents, and friends, do not understand the force of this alternate view. Not knowing how to respond, they react defensively. They are inclined to dismiss all the evidence as anti-Mormon or of the devil. Stop reading these things if they upset you so much, the inquirer is told. Or go back to the familiar formula: scriptures, prayer, church attendance.

The troubled person may have been doing all of these things sincerely, perhaps even desperately. He or she feels the world is falling apart. Everything these inquirers put their trust in starts to crumble. They want guidance more than ever in their lives, but they don’t seem to get it. The facts that have been presented to them challenge almost everything they believe. People affected in this way may indeed stop praying; they don’t trust the old methods because they feel betrayed by the old system. Frequently they are furious. On their missions they fervently taught people about Joseph Smith without knowing any of these negative facts. Were they taken advantage of? Was the Church trying to fool them for its own purposes?
These are deeply disturbing questions. They shake up everything. Should I stay in the Church? Should I tell my family? Should I just shut up and try to get along? Who can help me?

At this point, these questioners go off in various directions. Some give up on the Church entirely. They find another religion or, more likely these days, abandon religion altogether. Without their familiar Mormon God, they are not sure there is any God at all. They become atheist or agnostic. Some feel the restrictions they grew up with no longer apply. The strength has been drained out of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, and chastity. They partly welcome the new freedom of their agnostic condition. Now they can do anything they please without fear of breaking the old Mormon rules. The results may not be happy for them or their families.

Others piece together a morality and a spiritual attitude that stops them from declining morally, but they are not in an easy place. When they go to church, , they are not comfortable. Sunday School classes and Sacrament meeting talks about Joseph Smith and the early church no longer ring true. How can these people believe these “fairy tales,” the inquirers ask. Those who have absorbed doses of negative material live in two minds: their old church mind which now seems naive and credulous, and their new enlightened mind with its forbidden knowledge learned on the internet and from critical books.

A friend who is in this position described the mindset of the disillusioned member this way:

“Due to the process of learning, which they have gone through, these [two-minded] LDS often no longer accept the church as the only true one (with the only true priesthood authority and the only valid sacred ordinances), but they see it as a Christian church, in which good, inspired programs are found as well as failure and error. They no longer consider inspiration, spiritual and physical healing, personal and global revelation limited to the LDS church. In this context, these saints may attend other churches, too, where they might have spiritual experiences as well. They interpret their old spiritual experiences differently, understanding them as testimonies from God for them personally, as a result of their search and efforts, but these testimonies don’t necessarily have to be seen as a confirmation that the LDS church is the only true one.

“Since the social relationships between them and other ward (or stake) members suffer (avoidance, silence, even mobbing) because of their status as heretics, which is usually known via gossip, and since the extent of active involvement and range of possible callings are reduced because of their nonconformity in various areas, there is a risk that they end up leaving the church after all, because they are simply ignored by the majority of the other members.”

He then offers a recommendation: 

“It is necessary that the church not only shows more support and openness to these ‘apostates’ but also teaches and advises all members, bishops, stake presidents etc., who usually don’t know how to deal with such a situation in terms of organizational and ecclesiastical questions and – out of insecurity – fail to treat the critical member with the necessary love and respect that even a normal stranger would receive.”

Those are the words of someone who has lost belief in many of the fundamentals and is working out a new relationship to the Church. Other shaken individuals recover their belief in the basic principles and events but are never quite the same as before. Their knowledge, although no longer toxic, gives them a new perspective. They tend to be more philosophic and less dogmatic about all the stories they once enjoyed. Here are some of the characteristics of people who have passed through this ordeal but managed to revive most of their old beliefs.

1. They often say they learned the Prophet was human. They don’t expect him to be a model of perfect deportment as they once thought. He may have taken a glass of wine from time to time, or scolded his associates, or even have made business errors. They see his virtues and believe in his revelations but don’t expect perfection.

2. They also don’t believe he was led by revelation in every detail. They see him as learning gradually to be a prophet and having to feel his way at times like most Church members. In between the revelations, he was left to himself to work out the methods of complying with the Lord’s commandments. Sometimes he had to experiment until he found the right way.

3. These newly revived Latter-day Saints also develop a more philosophical attitude toward history. They come to see (like professional historians) that facts can have many interpretations. Negative facts are not necessarily as damning as they appear at first sight. Put in another context along side other facts, they do not necessarily destroy Joseph Smith’s reputation.

4. Revived Latter-day Saints focus on the good things they derive from their faith–the community of believers, the comforts of the Holy Spirit, the orientation toward the large questions of life, contact with God, moral discipline, and many others. They don’t want to abandon these good things. Starting from that point of desired belief, they are willing to give Joseph Smith and the doctrine a favorable hearing. They may not be absolutely certain about every item, but they are inclined to see the good and the true in the Church.

At the heart of this turmoil is the question of trust. Disillusioned Latter-day Saints feel their trust has been betrayed. They don’t know whom to trust. They don’t dare trust the old feelings that once were so powerful, nor do they trust church leaders. They can only trust the new knowledge they have acquired. Those who come back to the Church are inclined to trust their old feelings. Their confidence in the good things they knew before is at least partially restored. But they sort out the goodness that seems still vital from the parts that now seem no longer tenable. Knowledge not only has given them a choice, it has compelled them to choose. They have to decide what they really believe. In the end, many are more stable and convinced than before. They feel better prepared to confront criticism openly, confident they can withstand it.

- - - -

The members of the seminar on “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” a group of Religious Education and CES faculty who met at BYU for six weeks in the summer of 2008, are among those who have known Latter-day Saints in this state of confusion and doubt. We have had many opportunities to talk to questioners about their problems and admit that we have often fallen short in our answers. We came together in hopes of learning to do better. Besides gathering information on a series of specific issues, we have discussed how best to deal with questioning Saints. What way of speaking is most likely to win their trust and convince them we have their best interests at heart?

We began by agreeing that criticisms of Joseph Smith should not be dismissed as foolish or purely evil. The negative attacks that disturb first-time readers are usually based on facts, not merely prejudiced fabrications. To play down the force of the criticism, we believe, only convinces the seekers that we do not understand. We appear to be sweeping trouble under the rug. They may have been devastated by a criticism; we must show that we understand why. Consequently, the seminar took as its first principle to state the negative argument as fully and accurately as we can. We try not to minimize the difficulty or prejudice the case against the critic. In no other way can we persuade the doubters that we understand the problem.

Secondly, we try to avoid dogmatic answers. Rather than replace the dogmatic negative attacks of the critics with our own dogmatic answers, we attempt to show that a more positive interpretation is possible. Critics often claim that Joseph’s sins were so egregious as to utterly disqualify him as a prophet. We can understand their viewpoint, but we think there is another side to the story. Rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip. In the long run, we believe this approach will persuade questioners more effectively than claims to certainty where none is possible. We believe in stating our own strong convictions about the church as a whole, but we do not to pretend to perfect knowledge about complex historical questions.

We know that airing criticisms troubles many Latter-day Saints. Like most Church teachers, the members of the seminar do not want to draw attention to questions that will only unsettle faithful members. But we also feel that silence is not the answer. The absence of instruction troubles questioners more than anything. They feel they have been betrayed because they came through their Church classes ignorant of the devastating information now a few clicks away on the internet. The gaps in their education leave them disillusioned and angry.

To counteract this lack of preparation, the seminar members have taken as our motto the scripture that begins: “As all have not faith, teach one another” (D&C 88:118). We are encouraged by the scriptural recognition that not all have faith, and by the appealing remedy, “teach one another.” For many questioners, loneliness is the heart of the problems. No one seems to understand. We are enjoined by this scripture to find these seekers and bring them into a fellowship of inquiry. We hope that our papers will help Church teachers create safe havens where questions may be asked and answers explored--where we can teach one another.
____________________________________________
Richard L. Bushman is a Professor Emeritus of History, Columbia University, the current holder of the Howard W. Hunter visiting professorship in Mormon studies at Claremont Graduate University, and author of the recent biography Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling

 


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: lds; mormon
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To: DanielLongo
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the standard of Christianity.

The standard?

Wow...and mormons continue to wonder why Christians oppose mormonism.

Amazing......

161 posted on 08/17/2008 4:16:14 PM PDT by Osage Orange (Congress would steal the nickels off a dead man's eye's...............)
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To: svcw
Actually I was referring to the LDS varsity team. For us the Pros from Dover have always been here, presenting the same truth, from the very words of the LDS, over and over and over and over and over and over...

Well you get the point.

One day they will actually address the posts not work around them...

Then there will be a huge rift in space time...

162 posted on 08/17/2008 4:16:38 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: DanielLongo; svcw
ldsers believe they will become god, I guess you have already made “it” so to speak to know my heart [svcw]

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? So, you can put down that stone. Unless you want more scriptures? [DanielLongo]

DL, you know as well as the rest of us that Jesus was simply quoting Psalm 82 in John 10. Here's Psalm 82, and especially note the verses & words in bold face:

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Wanna explain, DL, how it is that these "gods" will "die like men?" (v. 7). Wanna explain, DL, how it is that these "gods" are unjust judges? (v. 2)

Even LDS apostle James Talmage recognized that John 10 & Ps. 82 is a reference to human judges empowered with divine authority:

"Plainly they had found no ambiguity in His words. He then cited to them the scriptures, wherein even judges empowered by divine authority are called gods...." (Jesus the Christ, chapter 28)

Being "called" a god Scripturally is not the same thing as being (or becoming) by nature a divine being. For example, your wallet can become a person's "god." That doesn't mean your wallet is by nature a "god."

163 posted on 08/17/2008 4:18:56 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: ejonesie22
So professor, explain HaplogroupX to us then. That is solid DNA evidence of a people, the Hopewell Indians, who covered North America from present-day New York in the East to the Great Plains in the West, the Upper Great Lakes region in the North, down to the panhandle of Florida in the South. This haplogroup is found in Europe, not Asia. The distinct subset of this particular founding haplogroup (meaning that it originated on the North American continent around 600 B.C.) can only be found in one other place in the world- the region encompassing present day Israel. Might I add, the archealogical evidence, such as the Hopewell temples, which have been found and surveyed by the Army Corps of Engineers, are constructed after the manner of the ancient tabernacle and the pattern of Solomon's temple, complete with the outer courtyards. These temples are described in the Book of Mormon and are exactly where the Prophet Joseph Smith said they would be.

Moreover, if you know anything about the people in the Book of Mormon, the descendants of those inhabitants are referred to as the Lamanites. In the Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith called several bretheren to take the Gospel to the Lamanites, as had been promised them in the scriptures. Every tribe he sent missionaries to is a member of HaplogroupX. That is not coincidence. You might also take note, based on your previous assumptions as to where the Church or the Prophet thought the Lamanites lived, that he never sent anyone to preach to the "Lamanites in Central America" He does not even mention Central and South America. For years anti Mormons have propped up academics who are also members of the Church and their belief that Central America was the setting for the Book of Mormon. The only fruit of their quest to make it so has been to divorce themselves from the Prophet Joseph.

He never said anything about Central America, which has been more of Church culture, since no Prophet of the Restoration has said that is where it was. In fact, as late as 2 years ago, the late Gordon B. Hinckley (Prophet of the Lord's Church) said the evidence had not come forth yet. It was in a discussion with a German reporter who thought to score some points when, at that time, DNA evidence showed no link between the indigenous lines of Central and South America with the Near East. All of the Church critics were quick to seize on this as a "nail in the coffin" to Mormonism. Little did they know that just two years later a confirming witness would come forth, not just showing a "European" DNA haplogroup- in which researchers would include the Near East, but strikingly confirming its link to Israel specifically, which is where the Book of Mormon says they came from.

I will continue when you have done more research. I won't spoon feed you the rest. Let me know if you have any questions on what you find.

164 posted on 08/17/2008 4:23:54 PM PDT by DanielLongo
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To: Osage Orange
Jesus said he was the Light and Life of the world.

They opposed Him then, too.

165 posted on 08/17/2008 4:27:21 PM PDT by DanielLongo
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To: Osage Orange

WOW!!!

I missed that one...

Whew...


166 posted on 08/17/2008 4:27:21 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: svcw

I asked do you believe Jesus is a son of god or The Son of God?

No the question you ask #120 was

“By the way do you mean a son of god or The Son of God?”

****

What is the deal with the scripture the question is for you.

***

Not so fast svcw, to me scriptures testify of Jesus Chirst so now do you object to sceiptures too?


167 posted on 08/17/2008 4:28:37 PM PDT by restornu (Here comes that feeling again my heart still yearn for what my mind wonÂ’t accept Investigator)
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To: Colofornian
Your question is best put to Christ. It is His quote, not mine. The meaning of His words is clear:

If a man be called a god by God, what is your problem. We can become gods is exactly what the Psalmist is saying. We do not become God, unless you believe in the Trinity because it says:

John 17 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Your teaching of the Trinity is that Jesus and Heavenly Father are the same being because the scriptures say Jesus is one with the Father. Following that line of thinking, then we are also to be part of the Trinity. By your own theology we are not just gods, but God. Of course, this can only be true if you believe the concept of the Trinity, which I might add is mentioned nowhere in the scriptures

168 posted on 08/17/2008 4:37:25 PM PDT by DanielLongo
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To: DanielLongo; greyfoxx39; Zakeet
And yet you can find NONE from the Church attacking another faith. They preach the truth of the Restored Gospel. They do not preach against any other faith. They don't have to.

DL, you've yet to explain how this statement of yours -- 100% contradicted by the LDS "Scripture" Zakeet cited in post #131 (along with other LDS general authority slams against historic & contemporary Christianity and Christians & non-Mormon churches)-- can possibly stand up to any measure of truth.

The "Restored gospel" reference of yours includes the "restored gospel" doctrine of a supposed "universal" apostasy. Marion G. Romney, the one-time head of the LDS missionary enterprise, said that this teaching (universal apostasy & restoration) was one of the top three teachings that LDS missionaries needed to proclaim.

Zakeet cited this in the LDS "Scriptures" -- showing quite clearly that the LDS church indeed attacks and preaches against the historic Christian faith:

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) – and which I should join. … I was answered by God that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." He again forbade me to join with any of them. (Pearl of Great Price, Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith History 1:18-20)

169 posted on 08/17/2008 4:37:48 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: DanielLongo
Wow...

Still insist on claiming a whole other culture as your own.
We have discussed that before.
Tell you what, since the burden of proof is on you not me, get me any information from a NON LDS source that backs this up.

You seem to have all this at hand, so it should be easy.

Wait, I am feeling a bit giving so here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1377656&blobtype=pdf

http://www.humpath.com/Haplogroup-X

And just a little tid bit, I can read The Lord of the Rings with great confidence and authority, still doesn’t mean there were Hobbits. Trying to sound erudite whilst promoting a mixed bag of loose “science” doesn't make you more correct, just more annoying.

170 posted on 08/17/2008 4:46:41 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: Colofornian
I have to hand it to DL, he's a pro. Must have been missionary of the year in his prime...
171 posted on 08/17/2008 4:49:33 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: DanielLongo
If a man be called a god by God, what is your problem. We can become gods is exactly what the Psalmist is saying.

Exactly how long have you have this reading problem of yours? Whatever you make of these verses in Ps. 82 & John 10 -- none of them say a single word about "becoming" gods. Whatever representation of God they had, it's something they already were -- never something they were to become!

Look at both Ps. 82:6 and John 10:34:
6I have said, Ye are gods
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jesus then clarifies it for us in John 10:35:
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken...

The apostle Paul also clarifies this for us:
5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:5-6)

Satan is a "god" to his worshippers. That doesn't make him a "god" by nature. But he is "called" a god because he has usurped rulership authority in this world that rightly belongs only to God alone.

The bottom line here is that whatever "godness" mere mortal Mormons try to claim, Scripture never allows you the luxury of trying to claim this is a future tense acquisition. I defy you to show me just one passage from your "quad" -- the Book of Mormon, from Doctrine & Covenants, from the Pearl of Great Price, or the Bible, which says that men become gods in the future.

It's the exact same thing with perfection. Matthew 5:48 says "be ye perfect" -- not "become perfect" -- but be perfect right now.

The fact is, DL, that the "gods" cited in Psalm 82 are...
...unjust
...and mortal (they die)

Unjust gods can never be true gods-by-nature gods.

You cited John 17:21 re: the oneness of Jesus disciples with Jesus and His Father: Men who are married are "one" with their wives. That doesn't mean they become female does it? (Your scatter-brained logic)

Your teaching of the Trinity is that Jesus and Heavenly Father are the same being because the scriptures say Jesus is one with the Father.

It goes well beyond that. For instance, all of the attributes ascribed to the Father also apply to Jesus. Jesus said in John 14, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father."

Following that line of thinking, then we are also to be part of the Trinity. By your own theology we are not just gods, but God.

No. We are mortal, God is immortal.
We are imperfect, God is perfect.
God is from eternity past as Creator; we are created beings.
God is omniscient & omnipotent & omnipresent. We see through a mirror darkly and are weak & can only be in one place at one time.

Remember Ps. 82:6 and John 10:34 -- ye "are" gods...So, if you & other Mormon males are already gods, show us your omniscience...your omnipotence...your omnipresence...your perfection. You can't. You are propagating an open lie that comes from the very mouth of the serpent in the garden who lied to Eve when he told her that if they ate of the fruit, their eyes would be opened: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Gen. 3:5).

(Please tell us how your message is distinctive from the Serpent's in Gen. 3:5?)

Of course, this can only be true if you believe the concept of the Trinity, which I might add is mentioned nowhere in the scriptures.

"The Bible" is nowhere mentioned in the Bible -- that doesn't cancel it out, does it? Where is "general authorities" in the Bible? Where is the word "missionary" in the Bible? Where is "Quorum?" Where is "Stake?" Where is "President?" Where is "abortion?" (I could come up with dozens of very good Biblical concept words & dozens more of Mormon-specific words that are nowhere to be found there).

172 posted on 08/17/2008 5:06:03 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
The basis for the trinity is in the Bible. It was not pulled out of a hat. We don't have to obfuscate it like the LDS does their works.

John 1:1,14: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

There are others, but I only have to see Apple Pie on one menu to know the restaurant has it.

173 posted on 08/17/2008 5:18:36 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: ejonesie22; Osage Orange; Colofornian
WOW!!!
I missed that one...

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the standard of Christianity."

Goes along with the newest talking point from the Corporation...You haven't noticed it before? I've questioned some about it.

"God's church..." "The Lord's Church"...

Since Christians aren't bowing to the demand of the mormons that they be called "Christian", they have decided to co-opt God and claim that He has given them His "official seal" as "His Church"!

We will be seeing more of it. The arrogance is unending.

174 posted on 08/17/2008 5:32:12 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (1992...how many folks had heard of Bill Clinton? John McCain, Eric Cantor for your VP pick!)
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To: ejonesie22; Colofornian
BTW that wasn't really directed at you, but for general consumption for those interested in fact. I know you know this already.
175 posted on 08/17/2008 5:36:58 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: greyfoxx39
I wonder if they will issue secrtet decoder rings...


176 posted on 08/17/2008 5:43:55 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: ejonesie22
SACRED....not "secret"!

It's been called that for some time by the leaders, but there must have been a memo sent out to the apologists to use it on the internet.

177 posted on 08/17/2008 5:48:33 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (1992...how many folks had heard of Bill Clinton? John McCain, Eric Cantor for your VP pick!)
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To: greyfoxx39; DanielLongo; ejonesie22; Osage Orange
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the standard of Christianity." [DanielLongo]

Goes along with the newest talking point from the Corporation... [GF]

Hmmm...how would the LDS folks respond if we said about their break-off groups?:
The Church of FundamentalistLatter-day Saints is the standard of Mormonism.
Or, The Reorganized Church of LDS (now called "Community of Christ") is the standard of Latter-day Saintism.

178 posted on 08/17/2008 5:55:12 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
If your assumption of which scripture he cited is correct and your assumption of what it means is also correct, then why would Jesus use that scripture to defend Himself? If it refers to “unjust gods”, then Jesus would be calling himself and unjust god. That makes no sense. I think your explanation is wrong.
179 posted on 08/17/2008 5:57:24 PM PDT by DanielLongo
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To: Colofornian
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the standard of Christianity." [DanielLongo]

Hmmm...how would the LDS folks respond if we said about their break-off groups?: The Church of Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints is the standard of Mormonism. Or, The Reorganized Church of LDS (now called "Community of Christ") is the standard of Latter-day Saintism.

I nominate the original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Strang's calling as the genuine successor to Joseph Smith was accepted by a number of leading Saints including: John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, Hiram Page, John E. Page, William McLellin, William Smith, Emma Smith, the sisters of Joseph Smith, William Marks, George Miller, and other Smith family members.

180 posted on 08/17/2008 6:07:09 PM PDT by Zakeet (Crime wouldn't pay if the government ran it)
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