Life On Gold Plates - (LDS) Open

http://lifeongoldplates.blogspot.com/2008/08/bushmans-introduction-to-joseph-smith.html ^ | August 14, 2008 | Richard Bushman

[greyfoxx39]

This seems to refute the oft-repeated message that all those who leave the LDS church have done so because they are, in the words of President Monson, "the less active, the offended, the critical, the transgressor".

We have discussed many of these points here, and also these: “Since the social relationships between them and other ward (or stake) members suffer (avoidance, silence, even mobbing) because of their status as heretics, which is usually known via gossip, and since the extent of active involvement and range of possible callings are reduced because of their nonconformity in various areas, there is a risk that they end up leaving the church after all, because they are simply ignored by the majority of the other members.”

Perhaps readers here on FR who have been bombarded by accusations that those posting here in opposition to mormon proselytizing are "liars and bigots", will learn differently from this article.

[greyfoxx39]

Ping

[colorcountry]

One of the main points in the article seems to be the Prophet Joseph Smith. Truly, the entire Mormon Church stands upon this man and his reliability.

It seems to me that this Mormon apologist is trying to say that Joseph Smith was a fallible human being as well as a Prophet. While I do accept that all men are fallible and sinful, and that God can use sinful humans to work for His good, I cannot accept that God would use an adulterer, bank fraud, habitual liar, con man etc, etc.

I truly don't expect perfection even from a prophet. But “not perfect” or “makes mistakes” or “errors like an other human being” is a far, far cry from the disgraceful human being that Joseph Smith, by all historical accounts, appears to be.

[ejonesie22]

How about the ones disappointed in their trip to the Nephi ruins...

[nesnah]

Nephite ruins? Geez, it would certainly take a while to list all of the BoM ruins that have been recorded.

[greyfoxx39]

I see we have new terminology..."Revived Latter-Day Saints".

That makes one wonder if the resistance to the information regarding the beginnings of the mormon church being made public is being spurred by these "revived" ones.

"They tend to be more philosophic and less dogmatic about all the stories they once enjoyed.".....kind of sounds like sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "la la la la la" when brought face to face with the real Joseph Smith and the real Brigham Young through church publications.

[ejonesie22]

Yes, a much shorter list would be the ones that have actually been found...

[ejonesie22]

The Pet Shop (parrot) sketch...

Owner: We’re closin’ for lunch.

Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this parrot what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, the Norwegian Blue...What’s,uh...What’s wrong with it?

Mr. Praline: I’ll tell you what’s wrong with it, my lad. ‘E’s dead, that’s what’s wrong with it!

Owner: No, no, ‘e’s uh,...he’s resting.

Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead parrot when I see one, and I’m looking at one right now.

Owner: No no he’s not dead, he’s, he’s restin’! Remarkable bird, the Norwegian Blue, idn’it, ay? Beautiful plumage!

Mr. Praline: The plumage don’t enter into it. It’s stone dead.

Owner: Nononono, no, no! ‘E’s resting!

[nesnah]

Exactly.....

[ejonesie22]

Actaully I have a copy of that list, it is in the bottom drawer of my printer, the one marker “Tray One”...

I also have 500 duplicates, in a sealed package marked “Office Depot Copier/Laser Paper”

[ejonesie22]

I just read through the link and a number of it’s posts. I am speechless. I have seen apologetics in my time, but this is something beyond even the irrational. I have to absorb it more to comment further in detail...

[Zakeet]

This is an incredible article!

For the first time that I can recall, a respected LDS source is making the following stark admissions:

1. Saints are coming across shocking information in the form of documents and facts about Joseph Smith and Mormonism through the Internet.

2. This new information causes cognitive dissonance.

3. Saints lose trust the LDS Church, and believe they taken advantage of. They don't know whether to leave the church, or stay in and try to just get along.

4. Church leaders and others do not understand the force of this alternate view. Without credible rebutting evidence, they resort to ad hominem attacks such as dismissing the source as anti-Mormon or of the devil.

5. The old instructions to quit reading the negative information and/or pray for a warm feeling are no longer adequate.

6. Persons who do not give up on the LDS Church are never quite the same as before; more philosophic and less dogmatic about all the stories they once enjoyed. They do this by:
   1. Understanding Smith was a sinner and not a model of perfect deportment as they once thought.

   2. Understanding Smith was not led by revelation in every detail, but rather had to learn how to be a revelator through trial and error.

   3. Learning how to put spin on historical facts – by giving alternative interpretations to data and thus portraying it in a more favorable light than it may first appear.

   4. Simply ignoring the truth they gain from the Internet in favor of the moral discipline they get from Mormonism.

7. LDS Church Leaders should realize the information about Smith and Mormonism is true – i.e. it should not be dismissed as foolish or purely evil. To do otherwise is to completely destroy their credibility. Instead, leaders should face the problems head on by being truthful – not try to minimize the difficulty or prejudice the case against the critic.

8. LDS Church Leaders should give dogmatic answers, but rather place as positive spin as possible on the information.

9. LDS Church Leaders should not ignore the problem any longer – silence is not the answer because it troubles questioners more than anything because they came through their Church classes ignorant of the devastating information now a few clicks away on the internet.

Unfortunately, this new approach to honesty leaves the LDS Church with a rather serious predicament. To quote one of the respondents to the article:

The approach to Joseph Smith which characterizes him as human like all the rest of us, and making mistakes in his religious pronouncements and practices, and sort of feeling his way in his prophetic mission, suffers fundamentally from the problem that such a view makes him no different at all from any other self-proclaimed prophet who tells the world God is speaking through him. Joseph Smith ends up being just another self-deluded or deluding visionary.

Needless to say, it will be interesting to watch how these events in the life of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unfold.

[colorcountry]

I wonder if Bushman will be reprimanded, perhaps disfellowshipped. The Church will be forced to do something to staunch this hemmorage.

Every reading person on this site has seen the treatment given by Mormons to ex-mormons such as myself, greyfoxx39, degaston, P-Marlow, Utah Binger; and most recently SENTINEL.

At least we have some vindication in that this apologists recognizes that we are not simply sinful and bitter people. It will be harder for them to discount us in the future, I think.

Ping to the good FreeRepublic ex-mormons that I’ve had the pleasure to come to know!

[greyfoxx39]

This article inspired this post on another forum. I thought it was a masterful summary.

" “D&C 121:36-37
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to COVER OUR SINS, or to GRATIFY OUR PRIDE, our VAIN AMBITION, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in ANY DEGREE OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, AMEN TO THE PRIESTHOOD OR THE AUTHORITY OF THAT MAN.

Mormonism has always been about worthiness. In the early Church men were ex’d all the time for disbelief not following revelations and questioning authority. Today you can’t go to the Temple or serve in a calling for drinking coffee or alcohol.

If regular members are held to that shouldn’t the prophet be accountable?

Ah but it seems to me if you apply the standard that is applied to every other member of the Church to Joseph Smith he wouldn’t fare so well— and not just because “things were different back then.”

[Pan_Yans Wife]

What exactly is “mobbing”?

[greyfoxx39]

"Psychological terror or mobbing in working life involves hostile and unethical communication which is directed in a systematic manner by one or more individuals, mainly toward one individual, who, due to mobbing, is pushed into a helpless and defenseless position and held there by means of continuing mobbing activities. These actions occur on a very frequent basis (statistical definition: at least once a week) and over a long period of time (statistical definition: at least six months´ duration). Because of the high frequency and long duration of hostile behavior, this maltreatment results in considerable mental, psychosomatic and social misery."

The Mobbing Encyclopaedia

Frankly, I believe we have seen instances of it here where several people would come on a single thread and bully colorcountry.

[greyfoxx39]

From the Religion Moderator's home page:

Open threads are a town square. Antagonism though not encouraged, should be expected

Posters may argue for or against beliefs of any kind. They may tear down other’s beliefs. They may ridicule.

On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”

When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”

Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.

Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.

 

[freeplancer]

At least we know who has the thin skin.

[Zakeet]

I wonder if Bushman will be reprimanded, perhaps disfellowshipped

I doubt it.

As you can see here, the guy is high powered, teaches in a good school, and is sitting in a chair funded by Mormons. A search at Columbia University shows him to be well published, well respected and the winner of teaching awards. It is highly unlikely the Mormon Church will try to pick a fight with this type of individual.

The Church will be forced to do something to staunch this hemmorage.

That is exactly what they are attempting with this article.

The LDS Church is famous for letting third parties float trial balloons. If the balloon sinks, the Church claims no responsibility for the statements of others. If it soars, it tends to become official church policy.

Frankly, I cannot imagine a seminar on such a sensitive subject could possibly be conducted at BYU, and a person such as Bushman would be allowed to give an account of that seminar, in an LDS blog no less, without the foreknowledge and approval (somewhere, somehow, and by someone) of the Mormon Church.

I believe the bottom line conclusion of the article is absolutely correct: The LDS Church can no longer lie and deny the truth -- they are therefore anxiously, urgently seeking another solution.

As noted in my earlier post, these are interesting times for the Church.