Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Jesus is the ONLY way to our salvation. Yes, we believe in the indwelling Holy Spirit to convict us of sin. That doesn’t mean we don’t sin, it just means He’ll keep reminding us of it until we repent and turn away from it. It IS a long process. I’ve fallen away myself, but He weaned me back. He won’t let go of me, but I can, because of free will, let go of Him. None of us are sinless, Mark. We are born with a sin nature. We need the Holy Spirit to keep convicting us of it so we can repent, confess our sin, and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.
God’s grace is sufficient.
Well, you just keep believing that. I hope one day your eyes will be opened.
***I don’t try to keep each and all of them straight. It’s an individual commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ that’s important, no matter how many denominations there are. There are protestants who are way off the bubble and there are Roman and Orthodox Catholics who are also way off the bubble. What counts is your relationship to Jesus Christ. True born again believers know that and want that for everyone.***
How does one know that one is a True Believer (tm)? Does one feel it? How does one know that one is not following the brightest angel?
One knows whether one believes in what the Church of Jesus Christ teaches because it is all there in its entirety. You don’t have to make it up as you go along.
Jesus taught one message and left one Church. Why are there so many different churches of men now?
Has nothing to do with protestant humor.
I think that’s seriously misreading what the Protty’s saying.
Trusting that God said what He meant and meant what He said in the Scriptures related to the issue is a relatively simple issue.
The Scripture says we can know that we are Saved.
Disbelieving God’s Word is a LOT more hazardous than taking God at His Word and believing Him emphatically.
So the church makes them Christian? The church doesn’t have much to do with personal salvation. No, I don’t believe all protestants (or Catholics) are Christians. When they put their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and have a true relationship with Him, confess their sins to Him, live for Him, then they are Christian. No rites can save you. Only YOU can make the decision to live for Christ and take Him as your Lord and Savior. Thanks for your reply. M
Dr. Eckleberg, Marysecretary thinks she has free will!
***We need the Holy Spirit to keep convicting us of it so we can repent, confess our sin, and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.***
You are well on your way to being Catholic. :) God bless you. You are, in this way, theologically correct.
***He won’t let go of me, but I can, because of free will, let go of Him. ***
Ditto.
***God’s grace is sufficient.***
Without It, we have no hope for salvation.
He won’t let go of me, but I can, because of free will, let go of Him.
Dr. Eckleburg, Marysecretary thinks she has free will!
Let’s see if I can get this straight.
Before the frogmarching Reformed Holy Spirit leaps upon you, you have no free will so you can do anything you want.
After the frogmarching Reformed Holy Spirit hijacks your soul, you have the free will to only do the things that God wants you to do.
Is that the way you read it?
God’s Spirit affirms it in my spirit. When you’re truly born again, your spirit witnesses to it. I can’t explain it fully because even I don’t understand it fully. I know I’m born again. I’m not following an angel of light. I read my Bible, I pray to God through His Son. God leads us in the way He wants us to go, if we’re willing to go.
How do you even know that what your church teaches is the correct teaching? You don’t, not really. You just believe them. Protestants are seekers of the truth as well.
Of COURSE it is, when it comes from a protty’s mouth.
***Well, you just keep believing that. I hope one day your eyes will be opened.***
My tagline is a quote from St. Augustine. I, a pygmy, stand upon the shoulders of theological giants who trace their lineage back to the Apostles, who heard the words of Jesus Himself.
Yer really in no position to know what I know.
The difference between Catholic and Christian? What an amazing example of judgementalism, legalism, and bigotry.
I have posted Romans 3:28 from a variety of Protestant and Catholic Bibles and can find no significant difference.
ROMANS 3:28
(RSV) For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
(IGNATIUS) For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law
(KJV) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(NAB) For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
(DOUAY-RHEIMS) For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law
(NAS) For F63 we R151 maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of F64 the Law.
(ASV) We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
What's your beef?
I understand what you are saying and I don't take offense. The thought has crossed my mind many times. My Son in law and I have a very good relationship and he loves conversation. If he were a really quiet person then there's be a much better change of what you are suggesting. One cannot discuss politics without religion being part of the discussion and we discuss politics all the time. But when it comes to more theological doctrines my SIL seems to have washed his hands of all the confusing things he heard in 12 years of RC school. Actually I think there is quite a bit of anger there. Sadly, he has no clue as to his own spiritual condition.
This DOES NOT mean that we couldn’t be friends. I have some friends and relatives who are liberals, we don’t discuss politics and it seems to work just fine.
I have a very good friend that was a cube mate. He was a Presbyterian turned Catholic. We LOVED talking religion and both enjoyed Bob Larson quite a bit. But we had many disagreements and some of them caused irritation. But we always returned to a common faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thanks for these comments.
Unless you can read their minds, you can only go by what they tell you, and what they tell you is not necessarily the sum total of what they know.
Such a person would have a powerful incentive NOT to discuss the Bible with someone who demonstrates hate for their Church.
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