The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

So, now that we are all in agreement that Mary's salvation was assured and God's Grace was upon her BEFORE the Crucifixion and Resurrection, can you explain why it couldn't have occurred at the moment of Mary's conception? Can you give a time that makes more sense?

I know I'm stepping into the middle of a different conversation.

The impartation of God's grace on Mary is not the same as her salvation being assured. Of course, I am of the opinion that all those saved are saved before the foundation of the world, because God chooses who to be saved and does so before the foundation of the world.

So in one sense, every one of the elect, chosen by God, are "without sin" from the moment of conception.

But that is not what is asserted in the narrative of Mary being sinless. The claim is of some special sinlessness.

God's sacrifice of his only Son was necessary for salvation. If it was not, if God could in other ways rid us of sin, then the murder of his Son would not be a great sacrifice, but a horrible waste.

If Mary could live a sinless life without Jesus, then God could have granted all his elect a sinless life, without Jesus.

Of course, I take the meaning of God's Grace being upon Mary in the same way I take other uses of the same word in the Bible, not as some unique "Grace" given to no other.

If Mary could live a sinless life without Jesus, then God could have granted all his elect a sinless life, without Jesus.

********************

Absolutely correct. But we know He didn't.

Well, I would have reminded the first poster that while officially correct, it is a common terminology and “Latin Catholics” is a more realistic term.

However,
>>[ There is no church called the RCC or Roman Catholic Church... ]
Really; I have always called the roman catholic church, the roman catholic church.. It is based in Rome at a separate country (Vatican) and “thinks” it is universal.. Voila roman catholic church.. To call the roman catholic church the Universal(catholic) Church is either dumb or arrogant.. The Universal CHurch would include the roman catholic chutch the EO and all reformed churchs.. One Pope made a slipshod attempt at doing that but failed.. You know, making the roman catholic church all inclusive.. with/by semantics.. but the roman catholic church remains a denomination nevertheless.. The old boy failed.. <<

Is like saying, “I’ve always called America, Amerika, so it’s right”

The word Satanist is wrong. So is the above post.

Context, context, context.

When one quotes without a reference i.e. a direct link which has been given here, one cannot see the big picture. If these were used against conservatives, we would all be screaming from the top of our lungs. Lifting words and reprinting them, is a MSM POV.

Amen! It gets back the question of “Why does the RCC make such a BIG DEAL about Mary? Is Jesus simply not enough for them?”

You’d better hope those books of the Bible are truly Holy Spirit inspired.

Point being bad men have been attacking the Church from without and within from the days of Ananias and Saphira. And yet the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

You are absolutely right! BTW - have you read this book?

As its name implies, "Four Witnesses" focuses mainly on the lives and writings of four particular church fathers, all of whom lived prior to 200 A.D.: Clement, the fourth bishop of Rome; Ignatius, bishop of Antioch who was martyred in Rome in the early second century; Justin Martyr, a Christian philosopher who was one of the first apologists for the Christian faith; and Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons in Gaul (modern France) who wrote extensively in refutation of Gnosticism. Bennett blends his own narrative text with numerous excerpts from the writings of these four men (plus excerpts from some other patristic writings) to tell a story of the Christian church throughout much of its first two centuries of existence. Central to this story are the persecutions which were ordered by various Roman emperors, and the constant struggle against other competing quasi-Christian belief systems. By quoting these "four witnesses" extensively, Bennett allows us to see first-hand what these early Christians believed, the challenges they faced, and how they responded to those challenges. The result is something that is difficult to achieve: a historical account that is compelling and interesting to read, while still containing numerous lengthy quotes from primary sources.

FOUR WITNESSES

The book is excellent!

The two posts were "exhibit A" for why the "respectful dialog" experiment failed. That was the purpose of the thread. And it failed because posters could not agree on what "respectful" means.

The current trial run of "ecumenic" threads is another attempt at finding a set of guidelines that would work for a respectful dialog between opposing beliefs.

Again there are disputes over the language on my profile page - and repeated attempts by "anti" posters to finesse the guidelines, but this trial is doing better. If the experiment fails, the alternative is to open the guidelines for "caucus" threads so that posters can disparage other beliefs without any rebuttal at all.

If anyone is interested in discussing this, please go to this thread. I do not want to derail the discussion on this thread.

A close walk with the Lord will take care of all of that as well. If you need those things, so be it. That’s how you’ve been taught. But those are just outward ‘signs’ and can just be done by rote without a true relationship with the Living God. Jesus has done for me all the things you relate in the last half of your post. I didn’t need the above to have that kind of relationship with Him. I’m glad it’s worked for you, however.

I find it difficult to comprehend how you could misunderstand the irony in my sarcastic statement and your publishing of Humanae Vitae which is so obviously ignored by "Catholics".

I missed nothing.

Catholics who ignore Church teachings do so with their God-given free will. As a Church, we pray that one day they will see the error in their decision. The Catholic Church provides the Sacrament of Reconciliation whereby those who repent are cleansed of their sins.

How many of these "theologians" can you name? Do you have numbers?

If you watched last night's live broadcast of The Journey Home, you would have Dr. William Bales, a former Presbyterian minister. Dr. William Bales, a Senior Fellow of The St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, is a Professor of Sacred Scripture at Mount St. Mary's Seminary in Emmitsburg, Maryland. He holds a Ph.D. in New Testament from The Catholic University of America and a Master's degree in Theology from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, where he concentrated in Old Testament studies.

Freeper Salvation provided a partial listing on a different thread that I have copied and pasted below. Freeper Annalex may also be able to fill in some names.

Conversely, how many Catholic theologians have converted to your denomination?

Journey Home - EWTN at 8pm - Dr. William Bales, former Presbyterian Minister [Ecumenical]
First the Protestants, Now the Cults: Will We (the Catholic Church) Be Ready? [Open]

A TRIUMPH AND A TRAGEDY [James Akin]
Alex Jones: the evangelical who became a Catholic deacon
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}
How the Saints Helped Lead Me Home [Chris Findley]
Who is Mary of Nazareth? [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}

A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
EWTN - Journey Home - 4/7/08 - Rosalind Moss - Former Jew & Evangelical Christian
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace [Joan Tussing]
Coming Out of Sodom (Reversion Experience of Once-Active Homosexual) [Eric Hess]
Our Journey Home [Larry and Joetta Lewis]

Book on Mary turns runaway youngster immersed in drugs and crime into a priest
Dr. Robert C. Koons (former Lutheran) - Journey Home - Monday 3/31 - Conversion Story
The Story of a Convert from Islam – Baptized by the Pope at St. Peter's [Magdi Cristiano Allam]
How Do We Know It’s the True Church? - Twelve Things to Look For [Fr. Dwight Longenecker]
"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation [Robert Sungenis]

New faith pulls Hot Springs family together (Baptists join Catholic Church at Easter Vigil) [Danny Morrison and family
SciFi Writer, John C. Wright, Enters Catholic Church at Easter Vigil (conversion story)[John C. Wright]
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura [Dwight Longenecker’family]
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM [Fr. Brian Harrison]
Pope baptizes prominent Italian Muslim [Magdi Allam]

My Journey of Faith [Marco Fallon]
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church [Robert Koons]
Thousands in U.S. to Join (Catholic) Church - Many Feel They Have Found a Home
TURN ABOUT (Carl Olson, former Evangelical and Monday's guest on EWTN's Journey Home)
Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church [Michael Cumbie]

All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)[John David Young]
Allen Hunt, Methodist Minister ...Journeys Home (Catholic, Re: Real Presence)
The Challenges and Graces of Conversion [Chris Findley]
An Open Letter...from Bishop John Lipscomb [Another TEC Bishop Goes Papist]
Unlocking the Convert's Heart [Marcus Grodi]

His Open Arms Welcomed Me [ Paul Thigpen}
Why I'm Catholic (Sola Scriptura leads atheist to Catholic Church)
From Calvinist to Catholic (another powerful conversion story) Rodney Beason
Good-bye To All That (Another Episcopalian gets ready to swim the Tiber)
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church

Bishop Steenson’s Statement to the House [of Bishops: Episcopal (TEC) to Catholic]
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson Will Become a Roman Catholic
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Pavarotti returns to the Catholic faith before dying

Searching For Authority (A Methodist minister finds himself surprised by Truth!)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope(Al Kresta)
The Hail Mary of a Protestant (A true story)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar(Al Kresta)

Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts (Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Rusty Tisdale (former Pentecostal)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA

Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Conversion Story - Tom Hunt
The Tide Is Turning Toward Catholicism: The Converts

John Calvin Made Me Catholic
Journey Home - May 21 - Neil Babcox (former Presbyterian) - A minister encounters Mary
Going Catholic - Six journeys to Rome
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
A Convert's Pilgrimage [Christopher Cuddy]

From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home (to the Catholic Church) [Drake McCalister]
Lutheran professor of philosophy prepares to enter Catholic Church
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
Why Converts Choose Catholicism

From Calvinist to Catholic
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
laetare (commentary on ordination of married Anglican convert to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles) Father Bill Lowe
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)

Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
He Was an Evangelical Christian Until He Read Aquinas [Rob Evans]

The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert

Hot and cold the anti-Catholic bigots run: ... Some folks just aren’t smart enough for Catholicism

I think that's a good example of the personal slurs and insults that are not appropriate for any of the Religion forums, open or otherwise.

I mention it because I know you are extremely sensitive about following the rules precisely from the conversation yesterday about ecumenical threads.

I was going to put a substantive response here to your substantive comments, so this wasn't just a meta-post about rules, but I realised on re-reading that there was nothing to respond to.

I agree with you that snake handling requires no particular scripture knowledge, although I would imagine reading up about snakes might be helpful.

As to the substance of the argument about Mary and her children. I think scripture is clear enough that there were brothers and sisters, but acknowledge that the references themselves do not prove the point (Once again showing that Catholic doctrine, whether you agree with it or not, is not ignorant, but is cleverly, cautiously constructed on a reading and interpretation of scripture).

However, if there was basic tenet of faith and practice that involved Mary being a Virgin throughout her life, I would assert that someone would have mentioned it explicitly in the Scriptures. After all, it was a requirement of marriage to consumate the marriage, so if we were to believe it was never consumated, we should have been told that.

Scripture made a point that Joseph did not know her before Jesus was born, so it would have been trivial to say that Joseph didn't know her ever.

Perhaps I was unclear, I was asking if there was a Protestant denomination that had a plan for a complete reading of the Bible over some period of time as part of the normal readings during Church services.

It has been shown that Catholics include much but not all of the Bible and I know that Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans use a system that is almost identical to what Catholics use.

I think the interpretation “inspiration of God” is a rational one, and that it was breathed silently, not in spoken words in a particular language.

So it would have been written in whatever language was natural to the person into whom God had breathed it.

Beyond that, my belief in a literal inerrant scripture is one of faith more than proof. God certainly could keep the Bible inerrant. If he didn’t, I guess I’ll have to answer for believing otherwise, but I feel that error would be less an issue than to reject his Word.

But that is not what is asserted in the narrative of Mary being sinless. The claim is of some special sinlessness.

I think it may be important to look into that word "special", and I scarcely know enough to know how to begin. I'd say that, in a way, the "specialness" is that of timing.

From My POV you are really close to what we say. Mary's sinlessness - and consequent freedom from the inclination to sin, was explicitly (in the document Ineffabilis Deus) described as NOT intrinsic to her but given by God taking into account the Atonement brought about by Jesus.

"...by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race."

So we agree that
[i]f Mary could live a sinless life without Jesus, [etc.].

One way to look at it is that Mary "currently enjoys" what is promised to all the elect with her immaculateness and her assumption.

Again, not trying to persuade, trying to clarify.

God keeps every promise. Every one.

Amen.

I am jumping into a discussion here I haven't followed. The question of Israel is always a fascinating one. I find Paul's sorrow and hope and love for his Jewish friends to be poignant and worth emulating.

Regarding the blessed fact as you stated that God keeps every promise, isn't the promise to bring them to Christ?

I agree with you that snake handling requires no particular scripture knowledge, although I would imagine reading up about snakes might be helpful.

Boy Howdy!

I'm liking Kevlar gloves and clothing too....

The Catholic Church provides the Sacrament of Reconciliation whereby those who repent are cleansed of their sins.

God has given his church so many amazing gifts. The sacraments are a small example of many. So many Catholics really do take these gifts for granted. We are like spoiled children who take our parents' generousity for granted.

Still, just in my lifetime our faithfull have given so much fruit. Mother Theresa, is an amazing testimony to God's love, Pope John Paul, helped to end communism, just to name a couple. How about those simple unknown Catholic mothers, like mine, who have remained obedient to God and dedicated themselves to their apostolate of motherhood, and care for their husbands despite the strong tides of feminism. We are not perfect but, thank God our foundation is strong and has withstood all the internal and external attacks.

Please remove me from your links ping list. I am not interested in them.

You Roman Catholics should concede the point: No where in the bible are there examples of persons on earth praying to persons in Heaven. And prayer is ALWAYS a form of worship.

This is why prayers to idols were seen as so wrong, as PRAYER IS WORSHIP, not merely respect and veneration.

AMEN! It could not be clearer.

At that point, Christ had fulfilled the law. Had been the blameless Sacrifice . . .

Really? Had the Veil of the Temple been rent at this point? Then why did He need to die? Was His Sacrifice simply to be scourged and nailed to the Cross or was His Death required?

Is it time to take up offering yet. This service is getting to be terribly boring