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To: CharlesWayneCT
But that is not what is asserted in the narrative of Mary being sinless. The claim is of some special sinlessness.

I think it may be important to look into that word "special", and I scarcely know enough to know how to begin. I'd say that, in a way, the "specialness" is that of timing.

From My POV you are really close to what we say. Mary's sinlessness - and consequent freedom from the inclination to sin, was explicitly (in the document Ineffabilis Deus) described as NOT intrinsic to her but given by God taking into account the Atonement brought about by Jesus.

"...by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race."
So we agree that
[i]f Mary could live a sinless life without Jesus, [etc.].

One way to look at it is that Mary "currently enjoys" what is promised to all the elect with her immaculateness and her assumption.

Again, not trying to persuade, trying to clarify.

1,393 posted on 06/03/2008 6:18:31 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

The problem I see with that is it just turns the issue around. Because I believe ALL the elect already have what is promised, just as Mary does — again meaning that Mary is not currently “special”, or in possession of something regarding salvation and sinlessness that the other Elect do not have.

I would however further agree that, being dead, Mary has a state different from the living Elect. Her state is the same as the other Dead Elect.

Having said THAT, I will further state that knowing what is true in the living world is hard enough without knowing what is true of those who have died. So long as nobody asks me to take personal action based on their belief, you can pretty much believe whatever you want about what happened to Mary when she died, or what happens to the rest of us. It doesn’t effect me now, and when I die I’ll find out what is next.


1,444 posted on 06/03/2008 8:09:29 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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