The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Quix]

I think the prostration ‘worship’ at men’s feet in Revelation is a particularly one time exception sort of thing.

In EVERY Biblical case and in EVERY Heavenly visitation case . . .

where folks have prostrated themselves before men, angels etc.

The stern rebuke is that ONLY GOD is worthy such.

The example in Rev, is, to me, quite clearly God exacting the sort of punishment for the prostraters that is most fitting—forcing them to do what they most deplore

while, in a sense, honoring GOD’S FAITHFUL servants . . . and doing so in a way that will make those faithful servants MOST humble and uncomfortable as that is NOT the standard order of Heaven nor all Creation.

In the Revelation example, it seems clear that the priority goal from God’s perspective is to force a very tailor made, most hated discipline, punishment on those prostrating themselves on them.

However, Prottys are used to some RC’s creating skyscrapers of dogma built on a toothpick foundation.

[Quix]

Not sure I fully get your joke . . .

But I think you know I’m not much into !!!!TRADITION!!!!

fancied as revealed or otherwise.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Catholics have a responsibility, not stressed enough in recent years IMO, to keep learning, not to be content with the bare minimum.

But as you say, your interpretation does not conflict with the magisterium's interpretation, so you would be urging the Catholic to "keep learning" from the magisterium and not the Scriptures.

Because the Scriptures and the magisterium conflict hundreds of times.

[Petronski]

Because the Scriptures and the magisterium conflict hundreds of times.

I'm sure the Magisterium (proper nouns get capitals) differs with YOPIOS hundreds of times, but it does not differ with Scripture (all 73 books).

[Mad Dawg]

Actually, the role of the magisterium has been more to correct utterly wrong interpretations (which happens rather infrequently) than to provide a line-by-line guide, which it doesn't do.

+1

Many on the other side either will not or can not get this. Their persistent image is that somewhere in the bowels of the Vatican is a group, not unlike the Watchtower for the Witnesses, which tells us what to believe, ow to read each line of Scripture and what to think on every single issue, whether real or anticipated.

This is of course entirely wrong, but to see that requires giving up the notion that we neither inhale nor exhale without looking over our shoulders for the Vatican's okay. But that's a central tenet of their opposition to us, and another example of how what they oppose is not the Church as it is, but something which is largely a figment of their own imagination.

[mgist]

God is glorified by your faith in Jesus Christ alone!

Please reference that in scipture.

"See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone . . so also faith without works in dead." James 2:24,26

Just because we are commanded to have no God's before Him, doesn't mean he doesn't want us to love anyone else. On the contrary, we are commanded to love and be obedient. We see Mary as special and blessed by God. That is clearly in the bible. Luke1:48, 1:28, 1:42, 1:45; Matt. 1:22-23.

[Quix]

INDEED. 100’s of times.

BTW, Thanks tons for your kind words and encouragements. You are one of the critters I hate most being out of touch with.

[Quix]

ahhhhhhh, yes . . . that daffynition explanation again.

does not differ with Scripture in the same way that

black does not differ with white;

up does not differ with down;

left does not differ with right;

front does not differ with back;

inside does not differ with outside.

Yeah, we Prottys know the RELIGIOUS mantra that Marx would be so proud of . . . with so many centuries of hammering out the lie until masses of millions accept it as truth.

[Quix]

It would be sooooo much better for the Body of Christ and for individuals’ souls

IF

that last sentence was remotely correct.

---

Yes, words are usually approximations.

I’m much more confident of the bulk of our Protty approximations of what we OBSERVE about the RC edifice

than I remotely could ever be about what I observe in the RC approximations describing what Scriptures mean.

[Quix]

Does the RC edifice have a straw dog factory somewhere in Central America?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

How would that differ from what you say the Bible says?

It "differs" in that I am doing the reading and thinking and comparing the words of Scripture to Scripture for myself with my own two eyes and ears. Unlike the RC who simply takes the word of old men and some changeable, quixotic magisterium.

Likewise, in the Bible I find that if I possess a true faith in Chirst I can be assured the Holy Spirit is leading my studies. I believe my faith in Christ is the faith spoken of in Scripture, and therefore I believe the Holy Spirit leads my sanctification.

Do I always get it right? No. No man, including the false bishop of Rome, gets everything right. None is perfect but Christ.

Read the Bible. In it you will find God telling you that you are actually capable of understanding what He's revealing of Himself to you, if God so wills.

The Bereans didn't make up this method of learning. Calvin didn't make it up. Protestants didn't make it up. The Bible tells us how to learn and profit by the words of God.

If God first gives us new eyes and ears, that is.

"The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them." -- Proverbs 20:12

I've known literally dozens and dozens of former Catholics who finally broke down and opened their Bibles and read them for themselves and were converted to the truth found in the Gospel that men are saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory alone.

[Quix]

I think the Druids are mostly into hedonism, control and power.

Moonies are somewhat into control and power . . .

Throw in some Ba H’ai’s

and it could get interesting if enough of them were obsessive true believers.

On the other hand, seeing satan’s cohorts squabble has never been THAT entertaining, to me.

[mgist]

I find it interesting to see here that our modern world is so smilar to the world in which Jesus lived. Many of his compatriots possessed an excellent knowledge of the Scriptures and held a good old testament theology. But the way they lived did not consistently honor God; nor did their preoccupations with each others faults help fulfil the mission for which God had chosen Israel. When it came to identifying and accepting Israel's Messiah, most of the nation's religious leaders and respected citizens turned their backs on him.

In Matthew 22:15-46, the author narrates a series of attempts by the religious establishment to trap Jesus into making statements that would incriminate him with the authorities or discredit him before his followers. In verses 23-33, Jesus succeeds in "muzzling" the Sadducees by his astute knowledge of the Bible and theology; and in verses 34-40, an expert lawyer from the Pharisee party tries to test him again:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Mother Mary was an excellent example of love, obedience, and compassion. The enemy continues to trick into quibling over semantics and thinking that to Love others, on earth or in heaven, is taking away from God. In my Catholic faith it is the contrary.

[wagglebee]

Well I think that it is reasonable to assume that before Gabriel spoke those words, in fact, before he was sent to her, that the grace of God was extended to her. If it was extended to her at the beginning of Gabriel's mission to her, then that would easily explain the verb tense, right???.

So, you agree that God extended His Grace to Mary BEFORE the Annunciation and obviously BEFORE the Crucifixion and Resurrection. This is a good start.

So, now that we are all in agreement that Mary's salvation was assured and God's Grace was upon her BEFORE the Crucifixion and Resurrection, can you explain why it couldn't have occurred at the moment of Mary's conception? Can you give a time that makes more sense?

[FourtySeven]

I think the prostration ‘worship’ at men’s feet in Revelation is a particularly one time exception sort of thing.

It is in Scripture, I agree, the only time "worship of other men" can be seen clearly, however that doesn't necessarily mean it's only a "one time event for all time". Re-read my post to Alamo-Girl for a discussion on this, but briefly, God wouldn't force men to do something that was sinful, because sin and God are incompatible elements.

In EVERY Biblical case and in EVERY Heavenly visitation case . . .

where folks have prostrated themselves before men, angels etc.

The stern rebuke is that ONLY GOD is worthy such.

With all due respect, your apparent disconnect here is amazing. You just acknowledged that in Rev 3:9 there is an example of men "worshipping" (prostrating themselves before) other men, but then right after you say, "In EVERY Biblical case...where folks have prostrated themselves before men, angels, etc.... The stern rebuke is that ONLY GOD is worthy such."

To be clear, it's not, I repeat, not, "every Biblical case" where that is true. You just admitted that yourself when you said, "I think the prostration ‘worship’ at men’s feet in Revelation is a particularly one time exception sort of thing." I see no point to comment further on that portion of your post.

The example in Rev, is, to me, quite clearly God exacting the sort of punishment for the prostraters that is most fitting—forcing them to do what they most deplore

while, in a sense, honoring GOD’S FAITHFUL servants . . . and doing so in a way that will make those faithful servants MOST humble and uncomfortable as that is NOT the standard order of Heaven nor all Creation.

In the Revelation example, it seems clear that the priority goal from God’s perspective is to force a very tailor made, most hated discipline, punishment on those prostrating themselves on them.

I have no problem with this interpretation of the passage in question. In fact, I'll let it stand without further comment other than to say: I don't see how that affects my point about "simple prostration not necessarily being worship to God alone", at all.

However, Prottys are used to some RC’s creating skyscrapers of dogma built on a toothpick foundation.

And Catholics are used to "Prottys" rejecting tradition as a source of knowledge. ;D

[Quix]

quixotic magisterium.

Now wait a silly rabbit minute . . . don't you know that

SOME

characters on screens are . . .

hole-y

no, no, no!

Holy . . . cue trumpets and organ . . .

In the Most Holy Order of Gilded Donkeys and Windmills

"quixotic"

is NEVER to be polluted by close proximity to

"magisterium," "magisterical" or "magicsterical."

Some things are just . . . uhhh . . . Cardinal sins.

HARUMPH . . .

[stomps off to stuff thin skin back into attic trunk]

[joke, folks, joke]

[Quix]

I think my wording is accurate.

The Revelation example is still in the FUTURE.

Has not happened, yet.

I need to look up THE MESSAGE version of that verse.

In terms of the RC issue of routine intensely emotionally focused worshipful adoration toward statues etc. of Mary et al . . .

I don’t think the Rev example, even if it had passed or even if it were a once in a person’s lifetime an administered punishment, discipline—I don’t think that as an example cuts any slack for the egregious stuff SOME demonstrate toward Mary day in and day out—short shrifting Christ, in the process.

And, by definition, God Almighty’s instructions are by definition not sinful. He writes the rules and implements His Holy exceptions . . . because . . . drum roll . . .

HE

happens to be

ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE ANGEL ARMIES.

One of His perks, so to speak.

[wagglebee]

I've known literally dozens and dozens of former Catholics who finally broke down and opened their Bibles and read them for themselves and were converted to the truth found in the Gospel that men are saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory alone.

I'm curious about this.

Earlier you stated that the Magisterium was in conflict with Scripture "hundreds" of times. However, when you boil it all down, the main differences between Protestants and Catholics can be reduced down to FIVE points (the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Eucharist, Purgatory, the Primacy of Peter and tradition), not HUNDREDS.

So, I'm just curious, have you really known "dozens and dozens" of Catholics who have left the Church or is it really just a couple and you are rounding up again?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your views - we will however remain in disagreement on what we spiritually discern in those two passages.

Again, for the record, the Spiritual emphasis I have received in the first passage is as follows:

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. - Revelation 3:9

In other words, it is the will of God not man at work here. His will is that those He has chosen to reject because they said they were Jews and were not - will be made by Him to worship before the feet of those He loves. God rejects their worship of Him and forces them to worship those He loves.

That is not a carte blanche for any man ever to willfully worship before the feet of another being, whether alive in the flesh or not. That behavior is expressly forbidden.

The first passage is therefore perfectly consistent with this passage from the same book:

And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

The difference between the two passages is clear to me. But if it isn't to you, then so be it.

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[John Leland 1789]

Yes, that's right!

Actually, we have had ZERO problem with the post office or customs re. contents of packages. You wouldn't believe the materials we've shipped in here from both the States and Hong Kong. Now, mind you, it could be that they let the stuff float in but have x-rayed it and know what's going on, and they will pick their time . . . if you know what I mean. But thus far, no problem through the mails. EXCEPT the COST of postage. I mean!!

Thanks again, kindly. I will let you know.