The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Petronski]

Mary is the mother of the human nature, not the Divine one.

This is the Nestorian heresy.

[Petronski]

Doubletalk

Fine distinctions.

[Mad Dawg]

That pretty much rests my case for me.

There isn't a lot of information about how I feel about what I'm pointing out. People frequently don't realize that one of the reasons the internet is a "hot" medium is that they bring a lot of stuff to the table, and then find what they bring in what they see.

And I've also learned that in a pathological environment or situation, particularly when alcohol or drug abuse is involved, the person who points out the proverbial elephant in the living room is often called a cry-baby, or trouble-maker.

A cartoonish slur is not going to change an unpleasant reality, so much as confirm that it is unpleasant.

[Mad Dawg]

“Double talk” and “parsing” are what people call careful speech they don’t want to take the trouble to understand, especially if it might make sense of their opponents’ views.

[Mad Dawg]

It’s the difference between paranoid rhetoric and free rhetoric. Paranoid rhetoric iin a prayer to Mary requires us to look over our shoulder and make sure that almost every other phrase is “by your intercession”. Free rhetoric delivers us from worrying what those who intend to misunderstand us (by which I emphatically do NOT mean you) will make of what we say.

[Mad Dawg]

I would consider myself honored if you would allow me to buy and send you a catechism.

[Pyro7480]

How does the Inquisition factor into the Catholic faith in the Philippines?

[John Leland 1789]

Well, I would be honored for you to do it. But another individual has given me a web site at which it should be found. Let me try that first (we’ll see if the Chicoms block it), ‘cause postage to get stuff here is OUTRAGEOUS! But if I can’t get it on line, I’ll take you up on the offer. How’s that sound? I appreciate your offer sincerely.

[OLD REGGIE]

I always want to acknowledge responses that are very thoughtful in tone and nature, as your is. Thank you for the portion from the Catechism. I actually would like to have a copy of the whole thing. I'm in China and don't know that I could find one here. I don't know that the same would be available from the Catholic churches here. But there is a very large Catholic church in XiuJiaHui, 30 minutes from here, and I intend to check there. It would likely be entirely in Chinese. I wonder how accurate the Chinese translation would be if it's available.

Of course, that XiuJiaHui Church would be under the government apparatus which forbids any direct links with the Vatican. Would their literature reflect the same general doctrines? It would be interesting to find out.

Are you able to receive mail order books from the United States? Used copies are available at very little cost from companies such as Amazon.com.

For example:

Catechism Of The Catholic Church

[Mad Dawg]

Okay. Ball's in your court. You have but to speak, and I shall leap on electronic wings even unto Amazon, where the plastic amulet will bear all costs and pay any price to get the Catechism to the Customs Office where they will destroy it.

But what's the odds as long as you're having fun, right?

[OLD REGGIE]

And some Protestants worship the Bible.

It's possible though I find it difficult that I've lived so many years and the only time in my life I heard about it was from a few FReepers right here.

On the other hand I did have a strange dream last night.

I saw a large procession in Boston with the centerpiece a Bible on a large float. Thousands of people were crying, blessing themselves and kissing that Bible.

I particularly remember the Bible was open and the verse displayed was

1 Timothy 2:
[5] For there is one God, and there are two mediators between God and men, the man Christ Jesus and His mother Mary,

I'm beginning to wonder if my faith is misplaced.

[Petronski]

1 Timothy 2: [5] For there is one God, and there are two mediators between God and men, the man Christ Jesus and His mother Mary,

Your quotation from first Timothy is false.

[Petronski]

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

This one works with e-sword:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/3a8b5166-8c27-4f8b-bf2b-e50805b0342c/Catechism-of-the-Roman-Catholic-church

[Uncle Chip]

The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

Since the same Greek word is used in Ephesians 1:6, does mean that Mary and the Church of Ephesus shared the same characteristic quality????

Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit.

Well I think that it is reasonable to assume that before Gabriel spoke those words, in fact, before he was sent to her, that the grace of God was extended to her. If it was extended to her at the beginning of Gabriel's mission to her, then that would easily explain the verb tense, right???.

In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.cf

Don't you think that is being just a little arbitrary??? Could it have been when she was 6 years old or 10 years or 15??? If you are going to be arbitrary about it, then there's no reason to settle on just the day of her conception/birth. For that matter, why not go all the way back to her father and mother and ancestors, or any other past occasion would easily do. Just how far back do you want to go with that grace???

[Quix]

PTL, YES!

Thanks to The Lord and JimRob,

the celebrations over my FREEPER death appear to be premature.

[Quix]

LOL.

What a clever fantasy.

[Quix]

If I were ranking RC deceptions in their dogma . . . I think I’d rank this one as one of the worst falsehoods and one of the most destructive . . . as well as one of the most haughty—though virtually any Christian club eventually shares that flavor of haughtiness toward all others.

[wagglebee]

As far as I know the Catholic Church in China is very much controlled by the government (I presume that Protestant Churches there are under the same scrutiny) and whatever you could get there would probably be unreliable.

There are plenty of Catechisms available online as long as the sites aren’t filtered.

[NYer]

If you are going to be arbitrary about it, then there's no reason to settle on just the day of her conception/birth. For that matter, why not go all the way back to her father and mother and ancestors, or any other past occasion would easily do. Just how far back do you want to go with that grace???

That would not make any sense at all. This was a unique (one time) event intended for a specific purpose. Mary, by carrying God in her womb, was to become the new 'Ark of the Covenant' - do you follow this so far?

[Quix]

Fine distinctions.

==

Ahhhhhhhhhh, yes, just the sort of fine distinctions the RELIGIOUS leaders 2000 years ago spent so much time creating, cataloguing and hammering into the serfs.

. . .

like the sort that rationalized their giving wealth to the church to avoid taking care of their parents with it.