The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Quix]

INDEED.

[LordBridey]

I practice anti-gibberishism.

ROFLMAO

[Quix]

I wonder . . . if your definition and guidelines per each thread category . . .

COULD IT BE PLACED AT THE END OF EACH ORIGINAL POST/ARTICLE IN THAT CATEGORY???

It could eventually be made a software automatic thing . . . but until then, perhaps you could ask all of us to be disciplined and thoughtful enough to do so. I shall try to remember to do so on the threads I start.

Might be particularly helpful in establishing more clearly such guidelines in the minds of those new to the Rel Forum as well as moderators functioning in your absence who may not be all that up-to-speed on the refinements evolving on such categories.

[Religion Moderator]

Some of the thread posters are including parts of it in the comments or first post. That seems to help.

[Quix]

YEA! GOD!

YEA! RM!

PROGRESS is a LOT better than other options.

LUB

[fortheDeclaration]

2. The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_le13is.htm

[CharlesWayneCT]

Because it's just another mindless task. You said Acts 1 included non-historic information. I asked you to tell me one, and instead you told me to look up old testament references.

If you are saying that you were wrong, that Acts 1 has no allegorical information, then just say so. If you are saying that you mistakenly said Acts 1 when you meant the old testament stories for which Acts 1 was a fulfillment, then say that.

Say SOMETHING. Otherwise I fear that when I find all the old testament stories referenced by Acts 1, you'll just point me somewhere else.

I want to know WHAT you are claiming, and what scripture you are using to make the claim. Otherwise it just feels like a wild goose chase. I read Revelation when you said to, and I read Daniel, and I read Acts 1.

I think I may know what you are getting at, but I'm tired of guessing. Just say what it is, and let's have a discussion about it.

[Antoninus]

Could be because we don’t believe they are alive in Heaven?

Then you don't believe the Scriptures:

"And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev 5:6-10)

[John Leland 1789]

I always want to acknowledge responses that are very thoughtful in tone and nature, as your is. Thank you for the portion from the Catechism. I actually would like to have a copy of the whole thing. I'm in China and don't know that I could find one here. I don't know that the same would be available from the Catholic churches here. But there is a very large Catholic church in XiuJiaHui, 30 minutes from here, and I intend to check there. It would likely be entirely in Chinese. I wonder how accurate the Chinese translation would be if it's available.

Of course, that XiuJiaHui Church would be under the government apparatus which forbids any direct links with the Vatican. Would their literature reflect the same general doctrines? It would be interesting to find out.

[Quix]

Interesting, indeed.

BTW, I came across on

http://www.abovetopsecret.com

a claim by someone connected to an anonymous ‘prophet’ of some sort . . . who the poster claimed had been 100% right in all his predictions . . . that a 9.X quake was going to strike just off the coast of China in June—middle of June plus or minus 2 weeks—so all of June supposedly is vulnerable. I have no further details.

Might be worth praying and asking The Lord if there’s anything to it that would have anything to do with your location. I forget where you are precisely.

His Highest for your Utmost as Oswald might say.

[fortheDeclaration]

Christ did not get His sinless nature from Mary! He got it because He was and is and always will be God!

Actually, He did get His human sinless nature from Mary.

Since Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, He did not receive Adam's Original Sin, so His human nature in its purity comes from Mary.

The man is the transmitter of Sin nature, the woman is only the carrier.

Ofcourse, as God, He wasn't conceived.

He had two natures, Human and Divine, Mary is the mother of the human nature, not the Divine one.

[fortheDeclaration]

Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm

Doubletalk

[netmilsmom]

>>No one does.

Ha!<<

And some Protestants worship the Bible.

[CharlesWayneCT]

I will note that in the Novena's posted here, the following line is included:

Therefore, extend, we pray you, your merciful glance on those numerous souls who suffer in the fires of Purgatory and free them, that they may be admitted to the beatific vision of God as soon as possible.

This certainly suggests that some Catholics believe Mary has the power to free people from Purgatory. Which would possibly mean she can either forgive their sins, or can remove the punishment for their sins.

That may not be "worshipful" to those praying the prayer. And I can't say whether these posts on FR are really correctly "Catholic" or not.

[NYer]

Keep in mind, as well, that it is through Mary that Jesus took on human flesh. No Mary, no Jesus. There was no other woman waiting in the wings.

Really? How do you know that?

Scripture. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.cf

[Iscool]

Quix...Is that really you??? Welcome back...

[Petronski]

It is the Roman church that has been creating pagan fables since it's inception at Nicea under Constantine.

Thank God the Catholic Church was founded by Christ circa 32AD and rejects all pagan fables.

[Petronski]

I made no reference to you.

Mind-reading is verboten here.

[Petronski]

WRONG again.

If you are testing out new taglines, I vote for this one.

[OLD REGGIE]

No problem. These are looooong threads!

To tell you the truth it was your post #666 which put the fear of God in me. I was compelled to retrace my steps and correct any possible error.

Funny thing is the first time I started my cable internet went out. That was enough message for me. :)