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To: NYer
The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

Since the same Greek word is used in Ephesians 1:6, does mean that Mary and the Church of Ephesus shared the same characteristic quality????

Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit.

Well I think that it is reasonable to assume that before Gabriel spoke those words, in fact, before he was sent to her, that the grace of God was extended to her. If it was extended to her at the beginning of Gabriel's mission to her, then that would easily explain the verb tense, right???.

In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.cf

Don't you think that is being just a little arbitrary??? Could it have been when she was 6 years old or 10 years or 15??? If you are going to be arbitrary about it, then there's no reason to settle on just the day of her conception/birth. For that matter, why not go all the way back to her father and mother and ancestors, or any other past occasion would easily do. Just how far back do you want to go with that grace???

954 posted on 06/02/2008 7:46:32 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
If you are going to be arbitrary about it, then there's no reason to settle on just the day of her conception/birth. For that matter, why not go all the way back to her father and mother and ancestors, or any other past occasion would easily do. Just how far back do you want to go with that grace???

That would not make any sense at all. This was a unique (one time) event intended for a specific purpose. Mary, by carrying God in her womb, was to become the new 'Ark of the Covenant' - do you follow this so far?

959 posted on 06/02/2008 7:59:37 AM PDT by NYer (Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: Uncle Chip; NYer
Well I think that it is reasonable to assume that before Gabriel spoke those words, in fact, before he was sent to her, that the grace of God was extended to her. If it was extended to her at the beginning of Gabriel's mission to her, then that would easily explain the verb tense, right???.

So, you agree that God extended His Grace to Mary BEFORE the Annunciation and obviously BEFORE the Crucifixion and Resurrection. This is a good start.

So, now that we are all in agreement that Mary's salvation was assured and God's Grace was upon her BEFORE the Crucifixion and Resurrection, can you explain why it couldn't have occurred at the moment of Mary's conception? Can you give a time that makes more sense?

1,014 posted on 06/02/2008 12:21:49 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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