The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

"Jesus also clearly calls her “Woman”, now I have never called my mother “woman”, and I never will.

He did that for a reason...

Remember things get lost in translation. Actually the Greek word tranlated "Woman" in English is a respectful & endearing word--quite different than if you said "Woman!" to your mother...

None-the-less, of course the wedding at Cana doesn't prove we should try to pray to Mary or any other persons whose souls are in Heaven.

You Roman Catholics should concede the point: No where in the bible are there examples of persons on earth praying to persons in Heaven. And prayer is ALWAYS a form of worship.

This is why prayers to idols were seen as so wrong, as PRAYER IS WORSHIP, not merely respect and veneration.

An all knowing nature is reserved to God alone--and once again, there is no evidence somehow people in Heaven change their nature and share God's omniscience. Hence neither Mary, nor anyone else in Heaven other than God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is always able to hear you pray.

Only one example exists of communication with the godly dead, and that was the evil King Saul communicating with the soul of the dead prophet Samuel, through the conjuring of a witch. (1 Samuel 28:3–25)

If you want to follow that example--because your Church (which has been wrong before...) tells you to, in contrast to Holy Scripture, I won't stop you, but be aware in Old Testament days conjuring the dead was a death penalty offense.

If Mary were so important to give high veneration to--including the worship of prayer, the fact must have been lost on Saint Paul and Saint Peter--both of whom never mention her in their writings. And of course Paul's letters make up more than 1/3 of the New Testament--and with Peter I would think you would pay attention to your first 'pope...'

Thank you so much for sharing your views, dear raygun!

To respond I must first explain my personal epistemology – or how I know what I know and how certain I am that I know it.

The differences between personal epistemologies accounts for much of the irreconcilable differences between people. And I suspect you and I have very different epistemologies.

The following is a list of the types of knowledge I receive by priority to me:

1. Theological knowledge, direct revelation: I have Spiritual understanding directly from God concerning this issue; e.g., that Jesus Christ is the Son of God — it didn’t come from me.

2. Theological knowledge, indirect revelation: I believe in a revelation experienced by another; which is to say that Scripture is authenticated and enlivened in me by the indwelling Spirit.

3. Logical conclusion: I can prove the Pythagorean theorem is valid and true.

4. Evidence/Historical fact, uninterpreted: I have verifiable evidence Reagan was once President.

5. Sensory perception of something external to me: I see my dog is lying at my feet.

6. Personal memory: I recall I had breakfast this morning.

7. Prediction from scientific theory: I calculate there will be a partial solar eclipse this week.

8. Trust in a Mentor: I trust this particular person to always tell me the truth, therefore I know …

9. Internal emotional state: I feel I’m happy, or I have empathy, compassion or sympathy for you.

10. Evidence/Historical fact, interpreted: I conclude from the fossil evidence in the geologic record that …

11. Determined facts: I accept something as fact because of a consensus determination by others, positive (affirmation) or negative (veto); i.e., I trust that these fact finders collectively know what they are talking about.

12. Imaginings: I imagine how things ought to have been in the Schiavo case.

So as you can see from the above, hermeneutics is wasted on me.

Essentially, hermeneutics involves cultivating the ability to understand things from somebody else's point of view, and to appreciate the cultural and social forces that may have influenced their outlook. Hermeneutics is the process of applying this understanding to interpreting the meaning of written texts and symbolic artifacts (such as art or sculpture or architecture), which may be either historic or contemporary.

The words of God are not merely language symbols such as text on paper or sound waves. The ones Jesus is addressing in the following passage were physically hearing Him but they could not Spiritually hear Him:

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

The ability to hear or “ears to hear” is gift of God all Christians receive:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

Spiritual discernment is a gift of God:

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Corinthians 2:10-16

Likewise in the passage below Jesus is speaking of the living words of God not dead letters on papyrus:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18

And again,

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

So whereas I find ancient manuscripts fascinating and I do enjoy hearing the spiritual insights of others – none of it is dispositive to me - all coming in at level 8 of my personal epistemology. Not even sensory perception (level 5) is dispositive or logic (level 3.)

But if God says it, it is. It is certain because He says it. (Levels 1 and 2)

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. – Isaiah 55:8-9

So there you have it. It doesn’t matter to me if you or FourtySeven or Dr. Eckleburg or Quix disagrees. It doesn’t matter to me if the Catholic Church disagrees or if the LDS disagrees or if Calvin disagrees or Billy Graham or A.T. Robertson or anyone else.

I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board. And the Spiritual leaning that have concerning the passages in Revelation 3 and 22 is exactly as I have testified.

Adam Clarke says of Rev 3:9 that "I will so dispose of matters in the course of my providence, that the Jews shall be obliged to seek unto the Christians for toleration, support, and protection, which they shall be obliged to sue for in the most humble and abject manner." He goes on further to state: To know that I have loved thee. That the love which was formerly fixed on the Jews is now removed, and transferred to the Gentiles.

Further, I testify that the Spiritual leaning I have is the above statement is completely false.

But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jeremiah 31:33-37

The full extent of physical reality - whether space or time - is both unknown and unknowable. God has not cast off all the seed of Israel.

The Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb are both sung:

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints. – Revelation 15:3

And the New Jerusalem honors both the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles of Christ (Revelation 21.)

God keeps every promise. Every one.

To God be the glory!

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