[CharlesWayneCT]

So, now that we are all in agreement that Mary's salvation was assured and God's Grace was upon her BEFORE the Crucifixion and Resurrection, can you explain why it couldn't have occurred at the moment of Mary's conception? Can you give a time that makes more sense?

I know I'm stepping into the middle of a different conversation.

The impartation of God's grace on Mary is not the same as her salvation being assured. Of course, I am of the opinion that all those saved are saved before the foundation of the world, because God chooses who to be saved and does so before the foundation of the world.

So in one sense, every one of the elect, chosen by God, are "without sin" from the moment of conception.

But that is not what is asserted in the narrative of Mary being sinless. The claim is of some special sinlessness.

God's sacrifice of his only Son was necessary for salvation. If it was not, if God could in other ways rid us of sin, then the murder of his Son would not be a great sacrifice, but a horrible waste.

If Mary could live a sinless life without Jesus, then God could have granted all his elect a sinless life, without Jesus.

Of course, I take the meaning of God's Grace being upon Mary in the same way I take other uses of the same word in the Bible, not as some unique "Grace" given to no other.

[trisham]

If Mary could live a sinless life without Jesus, then God could have granted all his elect a sinless life, without Jesus.

********************

Absolutely correct. But we know He didn't.

[Mad Dawg]

But that is not what is asserted in the narrative of Mary being sinless. The claim is of some special sinlessness.

I think it may be important to look into that word "special", and I scarcely know enough to know how to begin. I'd say that, in a way, the "specialness" is that of timing.

From My POV you are really close to what we say. Mary's sinlessness - and consequent freedom from the inclination to sin, was explicitly (in the document Ineffabilis Deus) described as NOT intrinsic to her but given by God taking into account the Atonement brought about by Jesus.

"...by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race."

So we agree that
[i]f Mary could live a sinless life without Jesus, [etc.].

One way to look at it is that Mary "currently enjoys" what is promised to all the elect with her immaculateness and her assumption.

Again, not trying to persuade, trying to clarify.