Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
We will always, always have charlatans in every religion.
Yes. I saw it myself originally. It’s in one of the more populated RC/Protty therads of the last month. One of the long ones, I think.
I don’t recall the RC. I don’t keep grudges or anything of the like in my heart or mind.
I’ve added the Religion Moderator as an addressee. Maybe he can think off the top of his head where that
RC outrage over
“Roman” Catholic
vs Protty tool/son/whatever of satan being ignored as of no consequence by the Protty contrast was.
You are forgiven. THat’s why you have a secretary...smile.
Remember things get lost in translation. Actually the Greek word tranlated "Woman" in English is a respectful & endearing word--quite different than if you said "Woman!" to your mother...
None-the-less, of course the wedding at Cana doesn't prove we should try to pray to Mary or any other persons whose souls are in Heaven.
You Roman Catholics should concede the point: No where in the bible are there examples of persons on earth praying to persons in Heaven. And prayer is ALWAYS a form of worship.
This is why prayers to idols were seen as so wrong, as PRAYER IS WORSHIP, not merely respect and veneration.
An all knowing nature is reserved to God alone--and once again, there is no evidence somehow people in Heaven change their nature and share God's omniscience. Hence neither Mary, nor anyone else in Heaven other than God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is always able to hear you pray.
Only one example exists of communication with the godly dead, and that was the evil King Saul communicating with the soul of the dead prophet Samuel, through the conjuring of a witch. (1 Samuel 28:325)
If you want to follow that example--because your Church (which has been wrong before...) tells you to, in contrast to Holy Scripture, I won't stop you, but be aware in Old Testament days conjuring the dead was a death penalty offense.
If Mary were so important to give high veneration to--including the worship of prayer, the fact must have been lost on Saint Paul and Saint Peter--both of whom never mention her in their writings. And of course Paul's letters make up more than 1/3 of the New Testament--and with Peter I would think you would pay attention to your first 'pope...'
Why am I omitting anything? Because I don’t believe in the veneration of Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, the infallibility of Popes, the one true church category? Hmm.
I hope you do get it! Your church has been selling you a bill of goods on what a saint really is and whose prayers are being kept in those vials. YOUR prayers and MINE are there.
Anepsios is used in the Septuagint in the 2 cases you cite, it is true, but the broader use of adelphoi in counterexamples predominates:
Gen 14:14
Gen 14:16
Gen 29:15
Deut. 23:8
2 Kgs. 10:1314
1 Chr. 23:2122
Neh. 5:7
And there are further uses of adelphoi, both in the Old and New Testaments in purely figurative sense as well.
You want to prove your position respecting the trinity nature of God? It can not be done unless the Bible is accepted as being authoritative.
Should you accept this mission, your work takes on a different tack than the rest of us engaged on this thread... (Troll alert)
I incline to the step-brother theory, myself, but the key point in my mind is that a precision is being imposed upon “adelphos” which it simply didn’t have in koine.
I have to laugh when I see the posts asking why Christ isn’t enough, if we weren’t supposed to love other people, why did God give us family and friends? Why did He not make us sufficient alone to focus all our energy on Him? Why did He create beautiful sunsets and landscapes, stars and moons?
I love all of these things because God made them and I pay homage to God when I am awed by them.
I can only guess. I don't know. I was just answering your question in a way that addressed the way you framed it. Christ is enough. I thought it might be helpful to suggest that there might be other means of encountering Him than the ones you are accustomed to.
Thanks tons.
Mixing apples, okra, cactus and whale blubber is not likely to bet the best route to increased enlightenmen, knowledge and understanding.
Bless you bless you for that many times over.
LUB,
If I understand correctly [RCC 1667-1679] suggest that each of the following are sacred "signs", are to be considered to be sacramental, and have the intent of bringing spiritual dimension to the events of everyday life [RCC 1667-1668, 1670]. I will cite some of the better known sacramentals
- reception of actual grace
- material blessings
- increased love of God
- sorrow for sin
- attonemnent for temporal punishment due
- venial sin forgiveness
- protection from Satan
To respond I must first explain my personal epistemology or how I know what I know and how certain I am that I know it.
The differences between personal epistemologies accounts for much of the irreconcilable differences between people. And I suspect you and I have very different epistemologies.
The following is a list of the types of knowledge I receive by priority to me:
2. Theological knowledge, indirect revelation: I believe in a revelation experienced by another; which is to say that Scripture is authenticated and enlivened in me by the indwelling Spirit.
3. Logical conclusion: I can prove the Pythagorean theorem is valid and true.
4. Evidence/Historical fact, uninterpreted: I have verifiable evidence Reagan was once President.
5. Sensory perception of something external to me: I see my dog is lying at my feet.
6. Personal memory: I recall I had breakfast this morning.
7. Prediction from scientific theory: I calculate there will be a partial solar eclipse this week.
8. Trust in a Mentor: I trust this particular person to always tell me the truth, therefore I know
9. Internal emotional state: I feel Im happy, or I have empathy, compassion or sympathy for you.
10. Evidence/Historical fact, interpreted: I conclude from the fossil evidence in the geologic record that
11. Determined facts: I accept something as fact because of a consensus determination by others, positive (affirmation) or negative (veto); i.e., I trust that these fact finders collectively know what they are talking about.
12. Imaginings: I imagine how things ought to have been in the Schiavo case.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Corinthians 2:10-16
But if God says it, it is. It is certain because He says it. (Levels 1 and 2)
I eschew all of the doctrines and traditions of men across the board. And the Spiritual leaning that have concerning the passages in Revelation 3 and 22 is exactly as I have testified.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jeremiah 31:33-37
The Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb are both sung:
God keeps every promise. Every one.
To God be the glory!
Amen.
Just another sister in Christ.
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