Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[annalex]

No, we don't have to do anything. The theory is that a "blood trail" exists. Let him show me.

I know you are not arguing his case.

[Kolokotronis]

" I have always found that the more I rely on God, and the less I rely on myself, the better off I am.'

Now that's very Orthodox, FK! :)

Here's a snip from +Symeon the New Theologian:

"Can a man take fire into his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?' (Prov. 6:27) says the wise Solomon. And I say: can he, who has in his heart the Divine fire of the Holy Spirit burning naked, not be set on fire, not shine and glitter and not take on the radiance of the Deity in the degree of his purification and penetration by fire? For penetration by fire follows upon purification of the heart, and again purification of the heart follows upon penetration by fire, that is, inasmuch as the heart is purified, so it receives Divine grace, and again inasmuch as it receives grace, so it is purified. When this is completed (that is, purification of heart and acquisition of grace have attained their fullness and perfection), through grace a man becomes wholly a god."

And this from the Ladder of Divine Ascent by +John Climacus

"I think that the body of those incorruptible men is not even subject to sickness any longer, because it has been rendered incorruptible; for by the flame of purity they have extinguished the flame. I think that even the food that is set before them they accept without any pleasure. For there is an underground stream that nourishes the root of a plant, and their souls too are sustained by a celestial fire."

And finally this from +Gregory of Sinai:

"He will share in Christ's glory who, through being formed in Christ, has received renewal by the Spirit and has preserved it, and so has attained to ineffable deification. No one, there, will be one with Christ or be a member of Christ, if he has not become even here a receiver of grace and has not, thereby, become 'transformed by the renewal of' his 'mind' (Rom. 12:2)."

[gscc]

These agreements are becoming a habit!! Should we hold an ecumenical council?

[Forest Keeper]

With all the mention of perseverance, holding out to the end, ethical exhortations, carrying one's cross, and following the narrow path, do you sense that the Scripture teaches we are saved irrefutably by one event in the past?

OK, I see you have a point there. I will change to say that "perseverance, holding out to the end, ethical exhortations, carrying one's cross, and following the narrow path" are necessarily exhibited by a truly saved person. Scripture supports that. I would only add that these are not possible by the choice of man, but rather these will happen by the power of God. God will not allow the truly saved to ever be lost.

Salvation doesn't depend on "confidence", but on love. ... Focus on love, brother, and you will have fulfilled the commandment of Christ.

I agree that salvation doesn't depend on confidence, I would say it depends on God's love and plan for us. I do focus on God's love for me, and I love Him back through the ability to do so, which He gave me.

[Forest Keeper]

Now that's very Orthodox, FK! :)

LOL! I'll just have to be a wealth of surprises then. Thanks for the quotes. That's some pretty deep material.

[Kolokotronis]

"That's some pretty deep material."

Indeed it is; I didn't even give you any +Gregory Palamas. The Fathers can be like that. And there's 36 volumes more of that depth in the set of the Ante and Post Nicene Fathers some of us here on FR have access to.

The middle quote, from The Ladder of Divine Ascent, speaks to what happens when the "nous", the "eye of the soul" becomes almost totally focused on God so that one effectively dies to the self and becomes completely subsumed in God. This is the near end result of what The Church in the East calls theosis and as you can see by all three of the quotes, this is accomplished by God's uncreated energies or grace alone.

I look forward to you surprising me! read the Fathers. You might surprise yourself! :)

[kosta50]

The Scriputre says that God would have all men saved. You claim otherwise. The Scripture says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11); you claim otherwise. Jesus said that He came to save many (not all), not because God would not will all men saved, but because some shall not find the path, and not because they shall not be taken to the path. You cliam that God already selected those who shall live and who shall die.

You and your brothers in faith continue to deny that God gave us free will. Without it, man is only another memeber of the animal kingdom and not one who can enter the Kingdom of God. Without free will, man is not free. Without free will, man cannot be a moral being. Without free will, man cannot sin!

I believe with all my heart that God wanted us to be free, moral and accountable for our actions. And, as free moral beings, we will be judged according to what we have done (2 Cor 5:10). Your pets will not be judged for their deeds!

The insane idea that we are connected to some tractor beam that leads us without any volition of our own is just that -- insane because it is contrary to everything we know about God and about ourselves.

As any loving parent would agree, we love our children for no reason whatsoever. Nothing they do can "buy" our love, nor do we expect them to "earn" it. And there comes a time when even the most loving of all parents have to let their children free so that they may come back to them because of love and not because they are kept souls.

Your God did not oly give us Christ, but Lucifer as well, because He is "sovereign" and can "do whatever He wants." Because He controls everything. He creates good and evil, but perhaps you can explain how can a Creator of evil be considered Good?

God is sovereign but not in your anthropomorphic terms. He Who is Love is not the source of evil.

[jo kus]

These agreements are becoming a habit!! Should we hold an ecumenical council?

:-)

I don't know if we will convince anyone of our infallibility!

Regards

[kosta50]

I certainly hope you're not suggesting that God is not able to save whom He pleases to save?

The Scripture is telling us that He chooes not to. He has revealed Himself to all men (Titus 2:11)

Dead men cannot choose life - it is given to them

Dead men cannot sin either! With life comes freedom and with freedom the freedom of the will, so that we can come to the Father willingly (not on our own will!), and live a life for which we will deserve a judgment.

God inscribed Himself in our hearts. Not just the knowledge of Him, but the knoweldge of love, and justice, of mercy and of forgiveness. These are His gifts to humanity. What we do with them is our record for which we shall be judged.

[jo kus]

I will change to say that "perseverance, holding out to the end, ethical exhortations, carrying one's cross, and following the narrow path" are necessarily exhibited by a truly saved person. Scripture supports that.

That is true, from God's point of view. I do not necessarily agree that WE know if we are saved (defined as "achieve eternal happiness") without ANY doubt. WE don't know if our names have been blotted out of the book of Life (or will be). But we can have a pretty good idea where we stand if we examine ourselves and see whether we are obeying the Commandments. 1 John is a very good epistle that covers how we can know we are saved - because (as you mention) we can only do good IF we abide in Christ. Thus, if we have good inner dispositions, loving others for the sake of loving them (not to earn something), we can rest assured that Christ is somehow abiding in us to a degree (since we cannot do that ourselves).

God will not allow the truly saved to ever be lost.

Yes, but am I of you or the "truly saved"? Paul in 1 Cor 6 tells us that certain Christians will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Although by habit, we can rest assured that we are likely in Christ as we grow in virtue, that we can have "moral" assurance of salvation, even Paul continued to run the race LEST HE BE DISQUALIFIED. As you know, you get NOTHING for being disqualified from the prize of eternal life...

I do focus on God's love for me, and I love Him back through the ability to do so, which He gave me.

Very good. Again, 1 John tells us to love in deed, not in words. Deeds of love are demanded of us - not to earn anything, of course, but because it shows our response to Christ and His work within us. "Of the greatest of these is love" says Paul.

Regards

[kosta50]

HE* taught it to us

He taught us that we can pray directly to the Father, which you deny. And besides Christ, the Holy Spirit has made intercessions on our behalf as well.

You can't ignore Christ's own words on this subject

You seem to be ignoring those that don't suit your personal papacy my friend, and choose those that do.

[HarleyD]

The Scriputre says that God would have all men saved.

I hear this argument ALL the time. If God wanted ALL men to be saved God would save all men. And you know what, God will save ALL those who He so chooses to save.

It's like the following statement:

Luk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

Did the scriptures really mean that Caesar Augustus had a census taken in China? How about:

Mat 9:35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Does this mean that our Lord Jesus went to EVERY SINGLE village and city in the world. Of course not. He probably didn't go through all in Israel.

It's an expression. Nothing more. With "All the inhabited earth" it is implied all the places Caesar controlled. With "all the cities and villages" its implied many.

God knows all men will never be saved. That is the way He knowingly created the situation. Free will or no free will. And just so we're clear, if God wanted all men to know Him consider what He tells Isaiah:

Isa 6:8-12 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed." Then I said, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate, The LORD has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land."

That's pretty heavy duty. Isaiah is called to harden the people's heart until the cities of Israel are laid waste. Now tell me that God wants all men to be saved.

[Dahlseide]

Would it be correct if I quote this as Catholic doctrine? Would it be correct if I quote this as Catholic Dogma?

I need to be as accurate as I am able; as I am writing to myself to record why I am a protestant. I am doing that for sake of my great great grand children, who are yet out of sight but somewhere down the line, & for their children, & for theirs,..., until the Lord returns.

Maranatha!

I am including two facts in what I am writing about Catholic teaching, one Dogma & the other probably doctrine to which I need only say AMEN.

On the Dogma, I have never heard a Priest of your Church say anything but "yes" to the question "Is Jesus God"; Protestants are all over the map on that question. I use capital P Protestants for those who seem to me to be Protestant only in the sense that they are not Catholic.

[Kolokotronis]

" God knows all men will never be saved. That is the way He knowingly created the situation. Free will or no free will."

So men, or rather at least some of them were created for damnation? HD, does this not then require a belief that God is the author of evil?

[Cronos]

reformed theology.

Pardon my inquisitiveness, but please could you explain the highlights of the reformed theology and key differences between this and others?

[Forest Keeper]

The Scriputre says that God would have all men saved. You claim otherwise. The Scripture says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11); you claim otherwise.

The word that catches my eye here is "hath", as in, past tense. This verse says that grace has already appeared to all men. It could have said "wilst"? or "doth", but it says "hath". The only explanation I can see is that this refers to the Incarnation itself. Jesus is God's grace because He "bringeth salvation".

Jesus said that He came to save many (not all), not because God would not will all men saved, but because some shall not find the path...

So, God does not get what He wants. God is thwarted.

Without free will, man cannot be a moral being. Without free will, man cannot sin!

I suppose that I would say that with free will man cannot be a moral being. I know that you'd agree that we are born sinners. If left to our own devices, would man tend to gravitate towards God or away from Him? I simply hold that it is the latter. Unempowered "free will" always leads away from God. Therefore, it is only because of God's act that we are capable of seeking Him.

The insane idea that we are connected to some tractor beam that leads us without any volition of our own is just that -- insane ...

I do believe that we are free to sin or disobey. That is our nature. Our volition to do good simply does not exist without God's touch.

Your God did not only give us Christ, but Lucifer as well, because He is "sovereign" and can "do whatever He wants." Because He controls everything. He creates good and evil, but perhaps you can explain how can a Creator of evil be considered Good?

God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants, yes. I thought it was uncontroversial that God created satan, who spent some time in Heaven. Then he chose to fall and was cast out. So, did God create evil in your mind? Also, God created each of us. We were born into sin (or evil), and would be forever damned without God's grace. But yet in our created state, we are evil.

[kosta50]

I will not play tit-for-tat with Scripture verses. That's your game. That's why there are thousands of your denominations out there, each claiming to be the "true" one. You can believe whatever you want. But in your heart you know what is true.

As for the OT, try reading it as Jesus taught us. It's in the New Testament. Jesus was condemned not so much for creating a new religion (no one in Israel thought that), but because He was dismantling the errors of the Jews by acts (being accused of not washing hands before eating bread or rescuing a man on a Sabbath), and by words (by reinterpreted the (OT) Scripture -- such as telling us that the call for "eye for an eye" was not the way of God, that evil cannot defeat evil (only God can), and that we should resist (committing) evil). So why are you spouting OT verse to me? Read them as Jesus would read them, if you can.

As for the free will, I will repeat: dead men cannot sin; those who cannot sin cannot be condemned. If our will is dead, is it any of our doing? We are morally accountable beings. One cannot be a morally accountable being without free will. The NT says we will be judged for our deeds. You probably deny that too.

In proclaiming depravity of mankind, you triumph in it by denying the very basic principles of what would make us accountable to God.

[Kolokotronis]

"We were born into sin (or evil), and would be forever damned without God's grace."

Interesting, (and a bit terrifying) concept and very Western.

"But yet in our created state, we are evil."

Is God the author of evil?

[Cronos]

God does want us to be "slaves to righteousness"

Yes, but that's a free will choice not an imposition.

[Cronos]

I don't think so -- I think our witnessing enables God to work THROUGH us -- like he worked through Jeremiah or the other prophets.