The word that catches my eye here is "hath", as in, past tense. This verse says that grace has already appeared to all men. It could have said "wilst"? or "doth", but it says "hath". The only explanation I can see is that this refers to the Incarnation itself. Jesus is God's grace because He "bringeth salvation".
Jesus said that He came to save many (not all), not because God would not will all men saved, but because some shall not find the path...
So, God does not get what He wants. God is thwarted.
Without free will, man cannot be a moral being. Without free will, man cannot sin!
I suppose that I would say that with free will man cannot be a moral being. I know that you'd agree that we are born sinners. If left to our own devices, would man tend to gravitate towards God or away from Him? I simply hold that it is the latter. Unempowered "free will" always leads away from God. Therefore, it is only because of God's act that we are capable of seeking Him.
The insane idea that we are connected to some tractor beam that leads us without any volition of our own is just that -- insane ...
I do believe that we are free to sin or disobey. That is our nature. Our volition to do good simply does not exist without God's touch.
Your God did not only give us Christ, but Lucifer as well, because He is "sovereign" and can "do whatever He wants." Because He controls everything. He creates good and evil, but perhaps you can explain how can a Creator of evil be considered Good?
God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants, yes. I thought it was uncontroversial that God created satan, who spent some time in Heaven. Then he chose to fall and was cast out. So, did God create evil in your mind? Also, God created each of us. We were born into sin (or evil), and would be forever damned without God's grace. But yet in our created state, we are evil.
"We were born into sin (or evil), and would be forever damned without God's grace."
Interesting, (and a bit terrifying) concept and very Western.
"But yet in our created state, we are evil."
Is God the author of evil?
Funny how all of a sudden the tense becomes important to you, when it suits you. Yes, Christ is a Salvation for a lost world. Without Him we would have no hope of ever being saved. A world without Christ would be a terrible place -- a living hell.
So, God does not get what He wants. God is thwarted.
How naive! God gets what He wants but not in the way you see Him. Our Lord was nothing like you or I. He, the King of Kings, was born in a filthy, cold and dark place of a teenage, unwed Mother. He was a poor Man. His strength was in His "weakness." He did not assert Himself the way we would. He won people over by His humility, love, mercy and justice, righteousness, wisdom, etc. Nothing truly macho about Him!
If the Muslims were scripting Jesus, he would be cutting people's heads off! So, why would the Jews not see HIm as raising cities and killing people by the thousands? And the way you seem to see God, He does whatever He wants, just the way some powerful people act. How wrong you are!
I tell you that if Jesus were walking the earth today, we would have Him committed and ridiculed. You think our society would tolerate a social nobody telling us he is God's Son? You think the society would tolerate someone who was telling us that our bibical passages are misinterpreted, that we should sell everything we have, give the profits to the poor and follow Him?
I suppose that I would say that with free will man cannot be a moral being. I know that you'd agree that we are born sinners
And I say that without a free will he cannot even be human, let alone accountable for his actions. And, no we are not born sinners. We are born with a propensity to sin. For a baby knows nothing and has done nothing. ; tabula rasa
Man's nature is not opposed to God; man's nature thinks we are God. The idea of God exists in all people. But is it misdirected and unfocused. As such, our fallen nature leads us into error and self-deception, and away from God -- i.e. into sin.
Our idea of a God is based falsely on our own perception of power on earth. We tend to see God as as ourselves except bigger and more powerful (as in paganism), but we tend to ascribe to Him the same passions and human attibutes we see in ourselves. Jesus Christ proved us wrong! He was nothing like the God we see in the OT. By our standards, Jesus Christ would be considered a pushover and a troublemaker. What did the High Priest say to Jesus on the Cross? He said if you are the Son of God, then take yourself down from that Cross.
For no one could imagine a God being humiliated, tortured and killed. No one would respect such a god in Israel -- and, based on what I have read from your side, I see that the Protestant idea of God is more akin to that of the Jewish High Priest than of Jesus.
Funny how all of a sudden the tense becomes important to you, when it suits you. Yes, Christ is a Salvation for a lost world. Without Him we would have no hope of ever being saved. A world without Christ would be a terrible place -- a living hell.
So, God does not get what He wants. God is thwarted.
How naive! God gets what He wants but not in the way you see Him. Our Lord was nothing like you or I. He, the King of Kings, was born in a filthy, cold and dark place of a teenage, unwed Mother. He was a poor Man. His strength was in His "weakness." He did not assert Himself the way we would. He won people over by His humility, love, mercy and justice, righteousness, wisdom, etc. Nothing truly macho about Him!
If the Muslims were scripting Jesus, he would be cutting people's heads off! So, why would the Jews not see HIm as raising cities and killing people by the thousands? And the way you seem to see God, He does whatever He wants, just the way some powerful people act. How wrong you are!
I tell you that if Jesus were walking the earth today, we would have Him committed and ridiculed. You think our society would tolerate a social nobody telling us he is God's Son? You think the society would tolerate someone who was telling us that our bibical passages are misinterpreted, that we should sell everything we have, give the profits to the poor and follow Him?
I suppose that I would say that with free will man cannot be a moral being. I know that you'd agree that we are born sinners
And I say that without a free will he cannot even be human, let alone accountable for his actions. And, no we are not born sinners. We are born with a propensity to sin. For a baby knows nothing and has done nothing. ; tabula rasa
Man's nature is not opposed to God; man's nature thinks we are God. The idea of God exists in all people. But is it misdirected and unfocused. As such, our fallen nature leads us into error and self-deception, and away from God -- i.e. into sin.
Our idea of a God is based falsely on our own perception of power on earth. We tend to see God as as ourselves except bigger and more powerful (as in paganism), but we tend to ascribe to Him the same passions and human attibutes we see in ourselves. Jesus Christ proved us wrong! He was nothing like the God we see in the OT. By our standards, Jesus Christ would be considered a pushover and a troublemaker. What did the High Priest say to Jesus on the Cross? He said if you are the Son of God, then take yourself down from that Cross.
For no one could imagine a God being humiliated, tortured and killed. No one would respect such a god in Israel -- and, based on what I have read from your side, I see that the Protestant idea of God is more akin to that of the Jewish High Priest than of Jesus.