[HarleyD]

The Scriputre says that God would have all men saved.

I hear this argument ALL the time. If God wanted ALL men to be saved God would save all men. And you know what, God will save ALL those who He so chooses to save.

It's like the following statement:

Luk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

Did the scriptures really mean that Caesar Augustus had a census taken in China? How about:

Mat 9:35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Does this mean that our Lord Jesus went to EVERY SINGLE village and city in the world. Of course not. He probably didn't go through all in Israel.

It's an expression. Nothing more. With "All the inhabited earth" it is implied all the places Caesar controlled. With "all the cities and villages" its implied many.

God knows all men will never be saved. That is the way He knowingly created the situation. Free will or no free will. And just so we're clear, if God wanted all men to know Him consider what He tells Isaiah:

Isa 6:8-12 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed." Then I said, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate, The LORD has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land."

That's pretty heavy duty. Isaiah is called to harden the people's heart until the cities of Israel are laid waste. Now tell me that God wants all men to be saved.

[Kolokotronis]

" God knows all men will never be saved. That is the way He knowingly created the situation. Free will or no free will."

So men, or rather at least some of them were created for damnation? HD, does this not then require a belief that God is the author of evil?

[kosta50]

I will not play tit-for-tat with Scripture verses. That's your game. That's why there are thousands of your denominations out there, each claiming to be the "true" one. You can believe whatever you want. But in your heart you know what is true.

As for the OT, try reading it as Jesus taught us. It's in the New Testament. Jesus was condemned not so much for creating a new religion (no one in Israel thought that), but because He was dismantling the errors of the Jews by acts (being accused of not washing hands before eating bread or rescuing a man on a Sabbath), and by words (by reinterpreted the (OT) Scripture -- such as telling us that the call for "eye for an eye" was not the way of God, that evil cannot defeat evil (only God can), and that we should resist (committing) evil). So why are you spouting OT verse to me? Read them as Jesus would read them, if you can.

As for the free will, I will repeat: dead men cannot sin; those who cannot sin cannot be condemned. If our will is dead, is it any of our doing? We are morally accountable beings. One cannot be a morally accountable being without free will. The NT says we will be judged for our deeds. You probably deny that too.

In proclaiming depravity of mankind, you triumph in it by denying the very basic principles of what would make us accountable to God.

[jo kus]

It's like the following statement:

Luk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

Did the scriptures really mean that Caesar Augustus had a census taken in China?

Ah, now you're getting it! Kind of like "All have turned out of the way; they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good, there is not so much as one" (Romans 3:12-13). We have to be careful with "all", which doesn't usually mean a "universal" all.

I believe it would be more accurate to say that God desires all men to be saved, BUT allows men to choose or reject Him. God's Love is unconditional, so He loves even those who do not choose Him. Of course, you will disagree! I think Scripture can be touted out to support either of our points of view, to be frank.

Fortunately, we have Apostolic Tradition to tell us what those writers meant...

Thank you, Lord, for giving us the Church in such cases!

Regards