Replies

The Scriputre says that God would have all men saved. You claim otherwise. The Scripture says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11); you claim otherwise. Jesus said that He came to save many (not all), not because God would not will all men saved, but because some shall not find the path, and not because they shall not be taken to the path. You cliam that God already selected those who shall live and who shall die.

You and your brothers in faith continue to deny that God gave us free will. Without it, man is only another memeber of the animal kingdom and not one who can enter the Kingdom of God. Without free will, man is not free. Without free will, man cannot be a moral being. Without free will, man cannot sin!

I believe with all my heart that God wanted us to be free, moral and accountable for our actions. And, as free moral beings, we will be judged according to what we have done (2 Cor 5:10). Your pets will not be judged for their deeds!

The insane idea that we are connected to some tractor beam that leads us without any volition of our own is just that -- insane because it is contrary to everything we know about God and about ourselves.

As any loving parent would agree, we love our children for no reason whatsoever. Nothing they do can "buy" our love, nor do we expect them to "earn" it. And there comes a time when even the most loving of all parents have to let their children free so that they may come back to them because of love and not because they are kept souls.

Your God did not oly give us Christ, but Lucifer as well, because He is "sovereign" and can "do whatever He wants." Because He controls everything. He creates good and evil, but perhaps you can explain how can a Creator of evil be considered Good?

God is sovereign but not in your anthropomorphic terms. He Who is Love is not the source of evil.

The Scriputre says that God would have all men saved.

I hear this argument ALL the time. If God wanted ALL men to be saved God would save all men. And you know what, God will save ALL those who He so chooses to save.

It's like the following statement:

Luk 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.

Did the scriptures really mean that Caesar Augustus had a census taken in China? How about:

Mat 9:35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.

Does this mean that our Lord Jesus went to EVERY SINGLE village and city in the world. Of course not. He probably didn't go through all in Israel.

It's an expression. Nothing more. With "All the inhabited earth" it is implied all the places Caesar controlled. With "all the cities and villages" its implied many.

God knows all men will never be saved. That is the way He knowingly created the situation. Free will or no free will. And just so we're clear, if God wanted all men to know Him consider what He tells Isaiah:

Isa 6:8-12 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.' Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed." Then I said, "Lord, how long?" And He answered, "Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate, The LORD has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land."

That's pretty heavy duty. Isaiah is called to harden the people's heart until the cities of Israel are laid waste. Now tell me that God wants all men to be saved.

The Scriputre says that God would have all men saved. You claim otherwise. The Scripture says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11); you claim otherwise.

The word that catches my eye here is "hath", as in, past tense. This verse says that grace has already appeared to all men. It could have said "wilst"? or "doth", but it says "hath". The only explanation I can see is that this refers to the Incarnation itself. Jesus is God's grace because He "bringeth salvation".

Jesus said that He came to save many (not all), not because God would not will all men saved, but because some shall not find the path...

So, God does not get what He wants. God is thwarted.

Without free will, man cannot be a moral being. Without free will, man cannot sin!

I suppose that I would say that with free will man cannot be a moral being. I know that you'd agree that we are born sinners. If left to our own devices, would man tend to gravitate towards God or away from Him? I simply hold that it is the latter. Unempowered "free will" always leads away from God. Therefore, it is only because of God's act that we are capable of seeking Him.

The insane idea that we are connected to some tractor beam that leads us without any volition of our own is just that -- insane ...

I do believe that we are free to sin or disobey. That is our nature. Our volition to do good simply does not exist without God's touch.

Your God did not only give us Christ, but Lucifer as well, because He is "sovereign" and can "do whatever He wants." Because He controls everything. He creates good and evil, but perhaps you can explain how can a Creator of evil be considered Good?

God is sovereign and can do whatever He wants, yes. I thought it was uncontroversial that God created satan, who spent some time in Heaven. Then he chose to fall and was cast out. So, did God create evil in your mind? Also, God created each of us. We were born into sin (or evil), and would be forever damned without God's grace. But yet in our created state, we are evil.