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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis; annalex; HarleyD
Without free will, man cannot sin!

That does point out my own issues with FK's thoughts -- if God chooses an "elect", he chooses a "damned", he chooses the sins we commit, he MAKES us sin and that I cannot believe of My God.
461 posted on 01/05/2006 8:07:46 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Cronos; kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis; HarleyD
if God chooses an "elect", he chooses a "damned", he chooses the sins we commit, he MAKES us sin

In its purest, most blasphemous terms that was stated by Zwingli. Others fudge over it. God,-- Zwingli said, and I paraphrase, -- commits a murder through the murderer, then very quickly (being God, he is quick) turns around and sends the murderer to hell for that.

If you believe in that, you'll believe in Islam.

466 posted on 01/05/2006 8:34:17 PM PST by annalex
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To: Cronos; annalex; Kolokotronis
...if God chooses an "elect", he chooses a "damned", he chooses the sins we commit, he MAKES us sin ...

Pretty weird stuff they teach, huh? That is what I would call depraved!

468 posted on 01/05/2006 8:42:03 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Cronos
...if God chooses an "elect", he chooses a "damned", he chooses the sins we commit, he MAKES us sin and that I cannot believe of My God.

I'll agree to the spirit of the first two, the third depends on how you look at it, and the fourth is a flat out 'No'. As I said in #456, I believe we are free to choose to sin, which is our nature.

In reverse order, does God make us sin? NO WAY!! God cannot be the author of evil. It is not His nature. But, God does know our nature (sinful). So, does God ever step out of the way and not intercede to allow the commission of a sin that will (ultimately) further His purposes? That idea is not offensive to me.

Now, does God choose our sins? That's tricky because of whether "choose" means "cause". Think of Judas. Prophecy said that the Savior would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, not 29 or 31. God is very interested in prophecy coming true. Street cred. and all. :) So concerning the betrayal by Judas, ask yourself whether God just rolled the dice hoping that it turned out exactly right, or was the fix in? The fix could have been in by God opening certain doors so that a lost Judas would have followed his sinful nature and done what was needed. But, it wasn't God "causing" the betrayal. Omission vs. commission.

491 posted on 01/05/2006 10:20:19 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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