Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution

Stingray blog ^ | 09/26/2005 | Michael McCullough

[DallasMike]

On Sunday September 25th, the Washington Post published a story called "In Evolution Debate, Creationists Are Breaking New Ground." Out of all the potential stories about Christians out there -- murderous persecutions in China, enslavement of Christians in Africa, the role of Christians in the Katrina cleanup -- the Washington Post chose to write this one.

Young Earth Creationists hold a very narrow construct of the Bible and claim that the earth is only 6,000 or so years old. I don't buy into that construct for the following scientifuc reasons:

• We have earthly evidence that contradict the idea of a 6,000-year old earth such as
• Ice cores from Greenland that provide a record of approximately 110,000 winter and summer cycles.
• Measurements of lead isotope ratios (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204) give statstically reliable ages for the earth of approximately 4.5 billion years.
• Given that the speed of light is relatively constant, how is that objects millions of light years away from earth can be seen? Yes, God COULD have created the light already in transit when he created the universe, but is that really like God?

God would have to be playing games with us to, say, create ice cores that are only 6,000 years old even though they show that 110,000 summers and winters have passed since the layer of ice was first created. God doesn't lie and I believe that his creation shows its true age.

The Biblical construct does not support the idea of a young earth either.

• The Bible states that the Earth is very, very old. Genesis 49:26, Deuteronomy 33:15 and the Habakkuk 3:6 speak of the "ancient" or the "age-old hills".
• The Hebrew word for day (yom)has multiple meanings in Genesis 1. Yom means: "light" as opposed to "darkness" (Genesis 1:5); "day" commencing with "morning" and ending with "evening" (Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31); "day" as opposed to "night" (Genesis 1:14,16,18); "day" with no end (Genesis 2:1-4) and the period of the entire creation 'week' (Genesis 2:4).
• God does not experience time like we experience time. The psalmist wrote "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by..." (Ps 90:4). The apostle Peter quotes this when he says that "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years..." (2 Peter 3:8).

One of the arguments of Young Earth Creationists is that those of us who believe in an old earth are somehow limiting God by saying that God NEEDED long amounts of time to create the universe. That's a bogus argument. God didn't NEED oodles of time but he apparently CHOSE to use oodles of time. God COULD feed all Christians with manna from heaven but he ordinarily CHOOSES to use more mundane things like tasty cows and yummy potatos. Just because I bought my lunch today instead of waiting for manna to fall from the skies doesn't mean that I believe in a weak God.

Are Young-Earth-Creationists fighting the wrong battle? I think so. The whole creation saga takes up about 2 pages in my 800-page Bible. It's more concerned with "who" rather than "how" or "when." If the "when" of creation were really such an important topic, then God would have devoted more time to it in his revelation to the prophets. God appears to be much more concerned with the present and with our eternal than in the past.

The evidence indicates that the earth is very, very old. However, that's not really all that important in the scheme of things. I believe that God created the earth and all things within it. I believe that the Bible is true and inerrant. I have huge problems with Darwinism that are related to its shaky scientific foundations, not any perceived conflict with the Bible.

We need to devote our time to telling others what a relationship with Christ can do for their lives NOW and in their eternal future, not trying to convince them that the earth is 6,000 or 10,000 or 4.5 billion years old. Forget the debate about the age of the earth because that's just getting in the way. Let's put things in perspective and stick to the important topic of how Jesus can change people's lives when they accept him as Lord and Saviour. People need to personally know Jesus, not listen to debates on how old the earth is.

[Rhadaghast]

Why is it deception to create Adam ready to survive?

If we were to go back in time and stand next to the 2 minute old Adam, what would be see?

Would he have hair down to his ankles?
lets be real, he would have hair.

Would he have calluses on his feet? Probably not, but he would get them very soon without shoes!

Would he have bacteria in his intestines which are required for digestion of food? Maybe; maybe not.

Would his finger nails be long?

Or would all of these things quickly acquire as he began to live and interact with his environment?

AS to stars and their light;
The speed of light is by no means a constant. Just recently scientists have discovered that it is slowing down. When you are talking 0.000000001 or there abouts difference over time currently it would be hard to notice. However what if the slow down was the bottom of a bell curve? It could have been much faster in times past.

Also when dealing with the stars, their is a verse in Job that suggests that the stars were flung into space by God. If they were flung into space from the area of Earth, would they not have light particles from earth to them, not created particles!

Steven Hawking and Ellis in their book, The Large Scale Structure of Space-Time. Mention the idea that Earth is the center of the universe seemingly, but they disregard this theory on philosophical principles.

What if we are talking about where marks on the earth and the stars, and Adam; Rather than evidence of oldness?

Could it be possible that the ice cores are misinterpreted? When the 'Krakatoa's' (I can't spell it)volcano in south Asia erupted there was a dramatic drop in temperature and Europe and America record a summer with out a temperature over 50 degrees. Could that show a difference in the ice cores, a result of changes in environment?

Lastly and I will definitely give over the floor.

In addition to all the great things posted on this blog regarding the accuracy of scripture and the authors belief in those same scriptures as true;

Sin caused death, not spiritual death, but death of any kind, according to Romans 5. With out that sin and death, Christ himself would not be required. Salvation it self is in question if we spiritualize the age of the earth.

Jesus did not doubt that he had created in 6 literal 24 hour periods. Why are we doubting that because we do not know how to evaluate the evidence of science. The problem with science is not the facts, but the presuppositions and conclusions.

[JohnnyM]

"Why is it deception to create Adam ready to survive?"

Im not sure if this was directed at me, but I dont see it as deception to create Adam an adult ready to interact with his environment.

"Jesus did not doubt that he had created in 6 literal 24 hour periods. Why are we doubting that because we do not know how to evaluate the evidence of science. The problem with science is not the facts, but the presuppositions and conclusions."

Here I agree whole-heartedly. Satan, from the beginning of creation, has used doubt about God's Word to bring about separation and confusion. Hath God said... (Gen 3:1)

JM

[DallasMike]

IE..find the writers that refer/quote back to Genesis 1-12 and see if they took at as Plainly written...if you do you will find even Jesus and NT writers, quotes it as plain TRUTH, not only that but a foundation for his purpose and an example by which the Jews set up their work week.

Can you show me one instance where a Biblical writer said something on the order that each day of creation was a literal 24-hour day? The problem (for the Young Earth Creationists, anyway) is that you can't.

[DallasMike]

YEC INTREP

Just out of curiousity, what does that mean? If it's an insult, that's okay -- I promise not to blow you in to the Mods.

[DallasMike]

would God deceive all the biblical writers?

No, he wouldn't. I think that the Biblical writers fully understood that yom is a flexible word.

However, I also don't think that he would deceive earth's scientists by creating a galaxy 1 million light years away and then creating the light waves from that galaxy 99.9999% on the way to earth. Nor do I think that he would add an exta 100,000 layers of winter/summer ice to Greenland.

[DallasMike]

Could it be possible that the ice cores are misinterpreted? When the 'Krakatoa's' (I can't spell it)volcano in south Asia erupted there was a dramatic drop in temperature and Europe and America record a summer with out a temperature over 50 degrees. Could that show a difference in the ice cores, a result of changes in environment?

It's possible with occasional events, though the Greenland ice cores show the same winter/summer cycle of water isotopes through ice ages as well as through warm periods. I could grant you a few Krakatoa-type ice layers being misinterpreted but there definitely were not 100,000 such events over the past 6,000 years.

[DallasMike]

Jesus did not doubt that he had created in 6 literal 24 hour periods.

What is your basis for such a statement?

I have a feeling that if you and I both asked him that question, he would say "what is that to you?" I just don't believe that arguing over the age of the earth is a tremendously important thing, and yes, I'm guilty as charged.

[LiteKeeper]

Check my profile page - it is described in full there - thanks for asking :-)

[Rhadaghast]

Could it also be possible that over 6000 years a series of 'Global warming' cycles could also have happened? Evolution is very dependent on a stasis of environment. With out that consistency there data is irrelevant due to the interpretation that is put on that data. Did you see the very scientific explanation of coal being made in 6 years or even 6 months with an event like Mt. St. Helen's? Your data has a plausible opposing interpretation that you are not considering.
,
Also:
Jesus believed in a six day creation, by honoring, and continuing the authenticity of; The Pentateuch, Moses, Adam and Eve, Noah, and dietary laws. These statements of support do not allow for a slight over sight of that "6 day creation myth".

Jesus said nothing about steeling, or homosexuality. Why? Because his silence was also a support of the continuation of the accepted societal norms established in Old Testament Revelation.

[flevit]

Exodus 20: 8-11

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

[JohnnyM]

"each day of creation was a literal 24-hour day"

This is overwhelmingly the case in Genesis 1.

Each of these days has a morning and an evening.
Each of these days is numbered.
Exodus refers to these days as literal 24 hour days.
The Sun and the moon were made to govern these days.

When day is used as a period of time, such as "in my father's day" it never has a morning or evening. It is never numbered and the context and sentence structure is entirely different than what is used in Genesis.

The days in Genesis are 24 hour days.

JM

[DallasMike]

Each of these days has a morning and an evening.

The sun wasn't created until Day 4, if my memory serves me correctly. How could there be a morning and an evening without a sun?

[DallasMike]

Could it also be possible that over 6000 years a series of 'Global warming' cycles could also have happened?

104,000 global warming cycles over a 6,000-year period? No, I don't think so.

[JohnnyM]

God created light without there being a Sun, so He could have easily divided up the day until He created the Sun to govern this action. Oh wait, that is exactly what He did on day 4. You seem to be limiting God in His abilities.

JM

[JohnnyM]

God created light without there being a Sun, so He could have easily divided up the day until He created the Sun to govern this action. Oh wait, that is exactly what He did on day 4. You seem to be limiting God in His abilities.

JM

[js1138]

I have a feeling that if you and I both asked him that question, he would say "what is that to you?" I just don't believe that arguing over the age of the earth is a tremendously important thing...

Jesus was, in fact, asked point blank what the important things are, and He answered obey the commandments and love thy neighbor. He didn't mention the age of the earth.

[DallasMike]

You seem to be limiting God in His abilities.

You know, that's the argument that's always given when people don't know a better answer. God has the ability to feed us all with manna but are you going to stand out on your front lawn tomorrow morning and wait for it to fall? If you go to the grocery store, then you may very well be limiting God's ability to provide for you.

Nobody argues that God did not have the ability to create the universe in 6 days or milliseconds. The question is what did God CHOOSE to do.

You're basing your argument on one POSSIBLE interpretation of a single word in the early chapters of Genesis. However, the revelation that God gave us through his creation strongly contradicts that one possible interpretation. Why not choose the interpretation of that word, yom, that fits the evidence that God has shown us through his creation? You have two choices: (1) either your interpretation of the word yom is incorrect, or; (2) God's revelation through his creation is incorrect. Choose your pick.

[JohnnyM]

No reading of these passages can infer, imply, or somehow suggest that it is not a 24 hour period. You choose to refuse it not by the Word of God as it is written, but by the knowledge of fallible man. You are interpreting the Bible through the lens of man's current understanding that is subject to change.

There is no interpretation of this passage that can make yom be anything other than a 24 hour day. There is too much against that interpretation. You are totally ignoring the language and context in which it is used. You totally ignore the morning and evening aspect, the numbering, and the passages in other parts of Scripture (i.e. Exodus) that unequivocally show that it is a 24 hour day.

You have yet to provide any sort of rebuttal to these remarks other than "science says it, so I believe it". You can doubt the clear Word of God all you want, but you are falling into the trap that befell Adam and Eve. Hath God said....

JM

[flevit]

but he also said something like "if you do not trust me on the earthly how then will you trust me on the heavenly" ?