This is the outline for the sermon that was preached last Sunday. The church I attend is a relatively large (300+ on a Sunday a.m.) charismatic Protestant church. The preacher who preached the message is one of several young assistant pastors on the pastoral/leadership team.
When I was hearing the message, I was really struck by point two, The Misinformed Person's Answer. I felt really strongly that he was suggesting that a person could be a "Christian" and not have the Holy Spirit. I went up to him after the service when he was alone, as I didn't want to discuss my misgivings with others around, and asked him what exactly he meant by that section. I shared my concern by explaining that you can't actually teach that a Christian doesn't have the Holy Spirit, first of all because it is wrong, and second, it would be a denial of the Trinity to say I could have Christ in my life but not the Holy Spirit, and that would be a heretical teaching.
He explained that he understood where I was coming from, but he felt he explained it well enough, and since the church is "seeker-sensitive", he felt he didn't have to delve too deep into the subject. I then explained that it is precisely because it is a congregation of mainly new Christians that you need to make it very clear that of course you have the Holy Spirit when you are a Christian, because you can't give the impression that it is possible not to have the Holy Spirit and be a Christian.
He again said he thought it was explained ok and I went away hoping that I at least made him think about what he was preaching on
Well, lo and behold, the senior pastor approached me after the Sunday Evening service (where I was leading worship) and said that him and I needed to talk. Over lunch during this week, I met with the senior pastor who told me in no uncertain terms that what was taught on Sunday was perfectly ok, I was way out of line to even suggest that the preach approached heresy, I was wrong to discuss the points of a sermon after the service, and because this isn't the first time I've approached speakers to criticise their message (I've done it about four times over two years), my place in the church is now in question.
Now, here is my question to you all...
AM I WRONG?
I really need to know if I am out of line on this, if my views do not comform to Scripture. I have a feeling that I'll be going to the mat on this one, but I will absolutely back down if I have got this all wrong.
I appreciate that they are trying to teach about baptism of the Spirit, however this church constantly fails to differentiate between the person of the Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit; this preach being a prime example.
If I am right, then please let me know, because I could really use the encouragement. Also, please feel free to point out other problems with this preach (this outline, which is passed out to all the Bible Studies this week, is taken from the preachers own notes and is not just my interpretation of the teaching).
Many thanks in advance for all your opinions, encouragement, advice and rebuke if I deserve it
pony
NO! You are not wrong...and it appears to me that your senior pastor was way out of line. And, I believe, he was wrong in his interpretation of Scripture.
BTW - I would start looking for another church. It is arrogant to think that a pastor is "six feet above contradiction."
LiteKeeper
Chaplain, US Army, retired
I need to know if I am wrong in my interpretation of what is being preached, if I am wrong in my objection to what is being preached, or if I'm ok here and I'm doing the right thing by standing up for correct teaching.
Also, any non-GRPL are also welcome.
Many thanks in advance
pony
As a non-pentecostal I'd disagree with far more than the point you mention, but that is not my concern in this response.
As a pastor who has preached and taught for a quarter century, I welcome people to come to me in private and ask for clarification. On several occassions they had an insight that I had missed. Even when they disagreed with my comments I appreciated their coming to me to express concern.
Your doing this in private was entirely in order and should have been graciously received. Knowing your posts here on FR I am sure you made the comments graciously.
The senior pastor's response is strange. He may see what he thinks is a pattern of bucking authority. If so, it is dangerous to suggest or insist that questioning the soundness of teaching is wrong. (Acts 17:11 says checking out the teaching of an apostle is NOBLE).
He may have other issues with you and is using this to "send you a message." I find that sometimes when people have personal issues that do not rest on any scriptural basis, they look for another issue that they can make sound spiritual.
In any case, the Lord be with you as you seek to honor Him in this circumstance. Exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit which IMO is the genuine evidence that you are filled with the Spirit!
Looks great to me.
Only quibble . . . I agree with Billy Graham . . . we all ought to be refilled daily.
And, that we all receive a MEASURE of The Spirit at Salvation.
I intend to keep your study on file. Thanks much.
Thanks to everyone for reading, and keep it up, it's really, really good to read everyones responses.
Lord bless
pony
JESUS SAID no man comes to the Father except THE SPIRIT draw the person.
Clearly The Spirit is involved before, at, during Salvation. Nothing else makes sense and nothing else is consistent with the Whole Counsel of God, imho.
I was reared in the Assembly of God. They are a precious denomination in a lot of ways. In a lot of ways, too many of them have been IN THE WAY for toooooo long and need to GET OUT OF THE WAY AND GET IN JESUS WHOLE HEARTEDLY, HOOK, LINE AND SINKER ANEW EVERY DAY . . . as we all do.
Denominational distinctives--even a "fullness of The Spirit" distinctive that flows into pride has missed the boat--is already askew.
I'm keenly thankfull and appreciative of Charismania in terms of Holy Spirit drawing me, aiding me, facilitating me, moving me deeper into Christ. I'd have been much more muted in my effectiveness in China without Holy Spirit flowing through me to the hurting etc.
But intellectual high horses about The Spirit to the unnecessary and ego driven bruising of precious souls and hearts, have already left a close walk with and in The Spirit, imho.
I may be overmuch like you. I don't know. But I TAKE THE SCRIPTURES ABOUT GOING TO A BROTHER VERY SERIOUSLY
--if the brother has something against me,
--if I have something against the brother,
--if I'm concerned the brother may be missing something significant in their walk with The Lord
etc.
And I try to do it rapidly to avoid giving satan an opportunity to drip resentment, haughtiness, whatever into my heart and between the brother and I.
Sadly, toooooo few Christians and especially Christian leaders seem to have those verses in their Bibles if their behavior or even tolerance for such are any clue.
I believe God will be calling all of us to establish, deepen and maintain much closer and clearer relationships on such scores between now and Christ taking us home. And those who refuse, may find their tickets canceled.
imho.
Pinging the GRPL for you.
You're absolutely correct. I've attended some Charismatic Churches who've said that you are sometimes filled with the Holy Spirit. This theology eventually leads to a work driven church with everyone striving to demonstrate the Holy Spirit evidenced in their lives.
I would follow the Bible direction and warn them as a brother/sister and if they still did not listen leave.
My friend, find a church that preaches the Gospel and nothing else. For it is Christ alone who saves us. The Holy Spirit will change you in the manner that God wants, not one that others think is right.
In other words: "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." 1 Jude 24-25
That said, I have a serious problem with the elements of pentacostalism that hold that there are some Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit, or those that hold that the sign that you are "Spirit-filled" is if you speak in tongues. This makes no allowence for the diversity of gifts clearly expounded in Scripture.
No - you're not wrong. There is a distinction between the indwelling of the Spirit given at salvation and the annointing of the Spirit which was what occurred at Pentecost. There are those who will disagree but they can be wrong if they wish.
As for you being possibly kicked out - to me that is a serious step to take and that could be for a couple of reasons. You may be more vocal and stringent about your approach than you realize you are or this is a symptom of a lack of fundamental Grace in the theology of your leadership.
I suspect that even if you are being too obnoxious in your approach that the latter issue is true. Pastoral leadership should always be about redemption - particularly towards its members. Any time a pastor is resorting to pushing someone out the door I have to question their maturity. Churches are filled with all types of problems in its membership - even some of the grossest sin. The first step is NOT to kick them out but to work diligently at a redemptive and restorative message.
I think your assessment of the sermon is right on.
Go with God.
I was raised in the Pentecostal church, and still attend one, and I've never heard this preached. Pentecostalism teaches that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer at salvation, and that the "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is a separate work of the Spirit, evidenced by tongues. You were not wrong to question this pastor's teaching.
Pentecostals seem to make a distinction between accepting Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit. Thus, the "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed" Scripture.
Sounds like some defensive behaviour on the part of the pastors there; they don't like to be questioned. You should probably start thinking about changing church.
The type of people you are dealing with are everywhere. There are also people like you everywhere. God does stuff like that. It is quite possible that your church needs you to stay. I was in a similar situation and I stayed, no regrets.
You need to earn someone's respect, before they respond well to criticism. Church hopping doesn't get that done. Hope this makes your decision eaiser. I pray you will do well.
Seven
Every Christian has the Holy Spirit, but I question whether any or all of what is presented as tongues in Pentecostal churches is really the gift of tongues. I don't know that it is not, but I am very skeptical.
1 Corinthians 13:8 - Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
I'm guessing that your church probably adopts a wrong position on whether you can fall from grace. You can't.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
Some additional information:
Question
In Acts 19 where Paul talks about John’s baptism being of repentance, it’s in the third through the seventh verse. He asked the people of Ephesus there, some disciples, it says, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit?” and they said, “No, we never even heard there was one.” And this girl I was talking with the other day at work, was telling me that she received the baptism of the Holy Spirit about 3 or 4 days after she was saved. I’ve heard a lot about that, I was taught back and forth when I first became a Christian and I’m not real sure. She showed me this section of scripture and I didn’t know how to answer her to say that it was all at one time.
Answer
This passage proves the very opposite, and I’ll show you why.
Verse one, “It came to pass, while Apollos was in Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper border came to Ephesus: and found certain disciples”. Now the word disciple, mathetes means a learner, we don’t know who they were learning from; we don’t know who they were disciples of in verse one, we just know they were learners. They were seekers of truth; they were followers of somebody. He said unto them, “'Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?' And they said, 'We haven’t so much as heard there is a Holy Spirit.' And he said unto them, 'Unto what then were you baptized?'" I mean, he’s shocked! He is in effect saying, "Well, whatever your baptism was it certainly wasn’t the normal baptism, it wasn’t Christ that you believed in or you would have heard and known of the Holy Spirit."
So the question is it’s a shock to him that there is somebody who says they're a disciple, and a follower, who doesn’t know that the baptism of the Spirit has come. So they said, "Unto John’s baptism," well who’s John? John the Baptist, these are Old Testament saints. See they haven’t even entered into the new covenant, so they’re not even saved yet. They are only in the sense of the Old Testament, so what does he do? Then said Paul; “John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance.”
Now, what is the baptism of repentance? John’s baptism was a preparatory baptism; in other words he was making a people ready for the Messiah. It was a ceremonial washing, it was very much the Old Testament thing where you come and you are symbolizing the cleansing of your heart, by the washing of the outer body in the baptism, so that you are demonstrating that you are ready in your heart to receive the Messiah, it was a preparatory, turning from your sin, turning away from the past and washing yourself on the inside and demonstrating on the outside. It was a preparation saying unto the people that they should believe on Him who should come after, that is Christ Jesus.
So John was getting people to repent of their sin and have their hearts cleansed by confession and repentance towards God, symbolizing their baptism to get ready for the coming of the Messiah. Well, who does he preach to them? Does he say them, "Now look let me tell you how to get the baptism of the Spirit--let me tell you how to do this?" No, he doesn’t say that; he talks to them not about the Holy Spirit, not about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, he talks to them about whom? Christ Jesus, because that’s what they have to hear. And so he tells them about Christ Jesus and when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Now they've become new covenant believers and when Paul had laid his hands on them the Holy Spirit came to them immediately on the spot and at that point they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
So this passage does not teach what is called the Charismatic doctrine of Subsequence. Now it is unique in the sense that they received the Holy Spirit differently than we do, but there’s a reason for that. On the day of Pentecost the people received the Holy Spirit in a marvelous way the first time He came…true? I mean it had to start somewhere, right? So the Spirit comes on them subsequent obviously to their believing, because they had to wait and pray and wait you know until the Spirit came. Now when you come into chapter eight the Gospel was taken to the Samaritans, now if there was any animosity in the world it was between the Jews and the Samaritans, right? So whatever God had done when he began the church among the Jews he better repeat when he begins it among the Samaritans, or the Jews are going to think they are second class. So when they believed the apostles were also present and also the Spirit of God came and baptized them and I believe they spoke in tongues, in the languages because that’s what happened at Pentecost. It wasn’t that the languages were so necessary to that event, they were a necessary connection to that first event.
Then in chapter 10 when Peter preached to Cornelius who is not a Samaritan, you go from the pure Jew to the half-breed Samaritan to the pure Gentile. When he preached to the Gentiles and they believed the same thing happened. The apostles laid their hands on them and the Spirit came and they spoke in tongues, not that it was important then, but it was important that they have the same thing the Jews had. So that the people see the church as one, so when those initial comings of the Spirit: the Jewish, the Samaritan, and the Gentile situation, there was a reenactment of the same things, and Peter goes right back to the people in Jerusalem and he says you’re never going to believe this, the same thing happened to the Gentiles that happened to us. Do you know what that means? We got to accept them on our level.
Now you only got one loose end and this is these drifters who are Old Testament saints, disciples of John and I believe they are included in the same one body concept by repeating the very same phenomena that you can trace all the way to the book of Acts.
Question (continued)
Repeating what, repeating the tongues?
Answer (continued)
The laying of the hands of the apostles, the baptism, the tongues. Not that it was so necessary at that point, but that it reenacts that initial coming so that there’s no sense of anything but one body of those who believe. And after that point it ceases. The Samaritans were in chapter 8, the Gentiles are in chapter 10, and the Old Testament hangovers are in chapter 19.
No, you are not wrong. The doctrine of the Trinity is one of the hardest for people to grasp, and any teaching that muddies the water is very, very bad.
No, You are not wrong, and I would seriously question if I wanted to continue in this Church at all were I you. In fact, were it me, color me gone.