Posted on 05/20/2004 3:53:34 PM PDT by ponyespresso
Posted below are the Small Group notes that have been passed out for study this week, please review and I will share my story at the end.
WORD: Notes for leading Small Group based on Sunday preaching
Date: 16/05/04
Basic Aim: To encourage us to understand, seek and experience the baptism of the Spirit
Ice Breaker; Either use your own, or here's a suggestion...
Someone think of a person and everyone else in the group takes it in turns to ask yes/no questions (no more than 20 in total) and the person who guesses correctly wins.
Bible Reading: Acts 19:1-7
Memory Refresher; Ask the group what they recall from the preaching on this subject-It may have been a few weeks ago by now!
Preaching Overview: Notes for reference or to aid memory!
Intro
When Paul comes across the disciples in Ephesus he asks them a very direct question: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?' verse 2. Let’s consider four possible responses.
The Uninformed Person's Answer
"What do you mean?"
The disciples at Ephesus expressed ignorance of the Holy Spirit and they certainly were not aware that He was available to be received. Christians need to know about God's promise to pour out his Spirit and that this is now available. In the OT God came upon special individuals for special tasks to empower them (I Samuel 16:13). Joel prophesied a time when God would pour out his Spirit on all his people (Joel 2:20) and Jesus said that would finally happen after be went back to the Father (Acts 1:4, 2:33...) This promise of the Holy Spirit is one of empowering (Acts 1:8) and sealing (Eph 1:13, 4:30).
This receiving of the Holy Spirit is described in several ways (being baptised in the Holy Spirit, filled with the Spirit, etc) and is distinct from the regenerating work of the Spirit and the indwelling of the Spirit.
The Misinformed Person's Answer
"Of course I have, I am a Christian"
Many people assume that because they are a Christian they must have received the Spirit. There are verses in the bible that at first sight seem to imply this (I COr 12:13) but they do not require it and we need to interpret them in the light of the rest of the biblical testimony about receiving the Spirit.
When we look at the accounts of people receiving the Spirit in Acts we see that it does not necessarily happen at conversion. While Pentecost is clearly a special case the others are not (Acts 2vsl-4. Acts 8:14, Acts 9:17, Acts 19:6), unless we are prepared to bring in reasons from outside the bible.
In the accounts we have of people receiving the Spirit the event is quite spectacular. Simon the sorcerer was so impressed by it that he offered money for the ability to do it himself (Acts 8:18). Peter's argument that the gentiles had been accepted by God rested on the fact that they had received the Spirit – a clearly observable phenomena (Acts 15:8) and Paul's question in verse 2 assumes that people would know if they had received the Spirit.
The Filled Person's Answer
"You bet, it was amazing, let me tell you about it!..."
So what sort of things happen when you are baptised in the Spirit?
@ Pentecost: a violent wind, things like tongues of fire, people spoke in other tongues (acts 8:18).
@ Cornelius' house: people spoke in tongues and praised God (acts 10:44).
@ Ephesus: people spoke in tongues and prophesied (Acts 19)
God had promised this sort of thing through Joel.
Throughout church history there are examples of people encountering God in a powerful way that seems to fit with the biblical experience of being filled with the Spirit. Blaise Pascal "Fire! Security, joy, peace", Isaac Watts "melting of the heart, tears gushing out of mine eyes", and D.L.Moody "I had to ask him to stay his hand". Although individual experiences will vary in intensity testimonies like these can help to raise our expectation and increase our hunger for God's empowering presence.
The Thirsty Person's Answer
"No but I would really like to"
Once things had been explained to the Ephesian disciples they were very keen to catch up. From Jesus' words in John 7:37-39 we can see there are two things that qualify us to receive the Spirit and two things we can do in seeking to be filled with the Spirit.
The qualifications are believing in Jesus and being thirsty. The things we are to do are go to Jesus and actively drink - God will not simply take control but rather work in us as we overflow in vocal praise and worship.
Digging Deeper: Some searching questions...
Ql What would your response to Paul's questions be?
Q2 What has been your experience of receiving the Spirit or seeking to receive?
Q3 What helps or hindrances are there to you actively seeking to be baptised in the Spirit or going on being filled?
Application Questions:
Ql How should I apply this teaching to my life?
Q2 How does this apply in our church life together?
Q3 What are the implications for our witness beyond the church family?
Action Points:
Share ... Encourage everyone to share where they need to adjust.
Prayer... Where appropriate, pray for one another.
Care .., Don't forget to follow up next time
Further Comments...
We would like you to continue using the 3 questions from the Discipleship leaflet.
In three's or fours explore the following questions together:
Have you spent regular time with God this week? If 'yes' what has He been saying to you?
Have you been faithful in the responsibilities and relationships that God has given you? (work, home, friendships)
Have you been able to share your faith this week or demonstrate God's love in action towards non-Christians?
Note - this is not intended to condemn but to provoke and encourage!!
This is the outline for the sermon that was preached last Sunday. The church I attend is a relatively large (300+ on a Sunday a.m.) charismatic Protestant church. The preacher who preached the message is one of several young assistant pastors on the pastoral/leadership team.
When I was hearing the message, I was really struck by point two, The Misinformed Person's Answer. I felt really strongly that he was suggesting that a person could be a "Christian" and not have the Holy Spirit. I went up to him after the service when he was alone, as I didn't want to discuss my misgivings with others around, and asked him what exactly he meant by that section. I shared my concern by explaining that you can't actually teach that a Christian doesn't have the Holy Spirit, first of all because it is wrong, and second, it would be a denial of the Trinity to say I could have Christ in my life but not the Holy Spirit, and that would be a heretical teaching.
He explained that he understood where I was coming from, but he felt he explained it well enough, and since the church is "seeker-sensitive", he felt he didn't have to delve too deep into the subject. I then explained that it is precisely because it is a congregation of mainly new Christians that you need to make it very clear that of course you have the Holy Spirit when you are a Christian, because you can't give the impression that it is possible not to have the Holy Spirit and be a Christian.
He again said he thought it was explained ok and I went away hoping that I at least made him think about what he was preaching on
Well, lo and behold, the senior pastor approached me after the Sunday Evening service (where I was leading worship) and said that him and I needed to talk. Over lunch during this week, I met with the senior pastor who told me in no uncertain terms that what was taught on Sunday was perfectly ok, I was way out of line to even suggest that the preach approached heresy, I was wrong to discuss the points of a sermon after the service, and because this isn't the first time I've approached speakers to criticise their message (I've done it about four times over two years), my place in the church is now in question.
Now, here is my question to you all...
AM I WRONG?
I really need to know if I am out of line on this, if my views do not comform to Scripture. I have a feeling that I'll be going to the mat on this one, but I will absolutely back down if I have got this all wrong.
I appreciate that they are trying to teach about baptism of the Spirit, however this church constantly fails to differentiate between the person of the Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit; this preach being a prime example.
If I am right, then please let me know, because I could really use the encouragement. Also, please feel free to point out other problems with this preach (this outline, which is passed out to all the Bible Studies this week, is taken from the preachers own notes and is not just my interpretation of the teaching).
Many thanks in advance for all your opinions, encouragement, advice and rebuke if I deserve it
pony
NO! You are not wrong...and it appears to me that your senior pastor was way out of line. And, I believe, he was wrong in his interpretation of Scripture.
BTW - I would start looking for another church. It is arrogant to think that a pastor is "six feet above contradiction."
LiteKeeper
Chaplain, US Army, retired
I need to know if I am wrong in my interpretation of what is being preached, if I am wrong in my objection to what is being preached, or if I'm ok here and I'm doing the right thing by standing up for correct teaching.
Also, any non-GRPL are also welcome.
Many thanks in advance
pony
thanks for your encouragement, and yes, a new church seems to be in the cards, whether I want to leave or not. But, after this incident, I am coming around to the conclusion that I have to go
thanks for your encouragement
pony
No. You are not wrong, and you've been invited to leave the church. You should leave.
It's all in the attitude and approach. It appears to me that you went out of your way to be sensitive to the speaker by going to him privately.
Not every minister's interpetation fits every member. If you have issues, find a more congenial church. And no opus please.
As a non-pentecostal I'd disagree with far more than the point you mention, but that is not my concern in this response.
As a pastor who has preached and taught for a quarter century, I welcome people to come to me in private and ask for clarification. On several occassions they had an insight that I had missed. Even when they disagreed with my comments I appreciated their coming to me to express concern.
Your doing this in private was entirely in order and should have been graciously received. Knowing your posts here on FR I am sure you made the comments graciously.
The senior pastor's response is strange. He may see what he thinks is a pattern of bucking authority. If so, it is dangerous to suggest or insist that questioning the soundness of teaching is wrong. (Acts 17:11 says checking out the teaching of an apostle is NOBLE).
He may have other issues with you and is using this to "send you a message." I find that sometimes when people have personal issues that do not rest on any scriptural basis, they look for another issue that they can make sound spiritual.
In any case, the Lord be with you as you seek to honor Him in this circumstance. Exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit which IMO is the genuine evidence that you are filled with the Spirit!
See, this is the point. I would like to think its not just my "interpretation", but its a matter of singling out actual false teaching. But, then again, I probably do have issues, lol, so you might be right.
And no opus please.
Sorry, I have no idea what you mean by this
Looks great to me.
Only quibble . . . I agree with Billy Graham . . . we all ought to be refilled daily.
And, that we all receive a MEASURE of The Spirit at Salvation.
I intend to keep your study on file. Thanks much.
Thanks to everyone for reading, and keep it up, it's really, really good to read everyones responses.
Lord bless
pony
JESUS SAID no man comes to the Father except THE SPIRIT draw the person.
Clearly The Spirit is involved before, at, during Salvation. Nothing else makes sense and nothing else is consistent with the Whole Counsel of God, imho.
I was reared in the Assembly of God. They are a precious denomination in a lot of ways. In a lot of ways, too many of them have been IN THE WAY for toooooo long and need to GET OUT OF THE WAY AND GET IN JESUS WHOLE HEARTEDLY, HOOK, LINE AND SINKER ANEW EVERY DAY . . . as we all do.
Denominational distinctives--even a "fullness of The Spirit" distinctive that flows into pride has missed the boat--is already askew.
I'm keenly thankfull and appreciative of Charismania in terms of Holy Spirit drawing me, aiding me, facilitating me, moving me deeper into Christ. I'd have been much more muted in my effectiveness in China without Holy Spirit flowing through me to the hurting etc.
But intellectual high horses about The Spirit to the unnecessary and ego driven bruising of precious souls and hearts, have already left a close walk with and in The Spirit, imho.
I may be overmuch like you. I don't know. But I TAKE THE SCRIPTURES ABOUT GOING TO A BROTHER VERY SERIOUSLY
--if the brother has something against me,
--if I have something against the brother,
--if I'm concerned the brother may be missing something significant in their walk with The Lord
etc.
And I try to do it rapidly to avoid giving satan an opportunity to drip resentment, haughtiness, whatever into my heart and between the brother and I.
Sadly, toooooo few Christians and especially Christian leaders seem to have those verses in their Bibles if their behavior or even tolerance for such are any clue.
I believe God will be calling all of us to establish, deepen and maintain much closer and clearer relationships on such scores between now and Christ taking us home. And those who refuse, may find their tickets canceled.
imho.
Pinging the GRPL for you.
You're absolutely correct. I've attended some Charismatic Churches who've said that you are sometimes filled with the Holy Spirit. This theology eventually leads to a work driven church with everyone striving to demonstrate the Holy Spirit evidenced in their lives.
I would follow the Bible direction and warn them as a brother/sister and if they still did not listen leave.
And no opus please.
Sorry, I have no idea what you mean by this
An Opus here at FR is a long soliliquy(sp) about why one is leaving, often blaming powers that be....and sometimes everyone else, before stalking off mad.
My friend, find a church that preaches the Gospel and nothing else. For it is Christ alone who saves us. The Holy Spirit will change you in the manner that God wants, not one that others think is right.
In other words: "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." 1 Jude 24-25
That said, I have a serious problem with the elements of pentacostalism that hold that there are some Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit, or those that hold that the sign that you are "Spirit-filled" is if you speak in tongues. This makes no allowence for the diversity of gifts clearly expounded in Scripture.
I had never thought about it that way before. Holy cow, what a "light bulb" moment.
Many thanks for that. It answers a lot of questions for me
pony
You mean leaving FR, or just whereever the person is? Cuz, I'm not leaving FR.
And hopefully, prayerfully, I won't be leaving the Church in a bad way either. David could have caused a huge rukus when he left Saul, but he didn't. That's the model I'm going by, to leave quietly and with honor. Or, at least trying to go by anyway.
pony
See, this is so great, because I've never really thought about it in that light before.
When I typically think of "works driven church", I think of a heavily program orintated church (which my church is, now that I think of it...). But, you are right, striving to prove you somehow have the Holy Spirit is works as well. Espically when you consider Paul says that the Spirit gives gifts upon whom He will, not merely because we want something.
I knew coming to you guys was a good idea. I don't know why y'all gettin in so much trouble out here, lol.
Thanks for your input, its greatly appreciated.
pony
Exactly. That was my whole rap, but they don't see it this way. Or, again, I think it's about confusing terms.
They are saying that you don't always get the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian, but what the mean is that you don't always get baptised by the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian. They don't clearly define their terms at all.
However, at my meeting, I asked point blank if they are actually teaching that someone can be a Christian and not have the Holy Spirit, but they dodged the question. Which is a worry, to be honest.
pony
Well, if you do have a spare moment, I would like to hear you out. Again, at your leisure..
a pastor who has preached and taught for a quarter century, I welcome people to come to me in private and ask for clarification.
See, I used the example in Acts of Priscilla and Aquilla taking Apollos aside after he just preached as an example that it is ok to do this. But they didn't seem to agree with my interpretation of that.
The senior pastor's response is strange. He may see what he thinks is a pattern of bucking authority. If so, it is dangerous to suggest or insist that questioning the soundness of teaching is wrong. (Acts 17:11 says checking out the teaching of an apostle is NOBLE).
I completely forgot to bring that verse up. They wondered why I had somehow set my self up as a doctrinal watchdog. I responsed that we all have a responsibility to weigh what is being taught. I used the verse in 1 John about testing the spirits, but the Acts 17:11 would have been more correct for this instance. Thanks for showing me that.
In any case, the Lord be with you as you seek to honor Him in this circumstance. Exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit which IMO is the genuine evidence that you are filled with the Spirit!
Well, as Will Smith would say, "That's what I'M talking about!"
Many thanks for your insight
pony
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