The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[HarleyD]

Being on the other side of the fence for many years I think you've summed it up nicely. I believe the real dispute in your analogy is over how much we operate in the space permitting.

From your analogy you would probably say that if God's assignment for you is to work in the kitchen, you would have the freedom to prepare the menu, schedule the meals, etc. From the Reform perspective we would say God would tell us what He wants to have served, give us the ingrediants, tells us when the meals will take place, etc. The difference, of course, is the degree of control.

If a meal that you developed did not go well it would be your fault since you were the one to control the ingrediants, recipes, etc. Your shipmates may not be very approving and, if egreious enough, the cries may be carried to the Captain who would not be happy.

On the other hand, from a Reform perspective, every meal that would be fix would be perfect since the recipes, ingrediants, etc. would be picked by God. We are just instruments in putting it together. No one can complain to us because it was developed by the Captain.

It a matter of perspective of control.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I must say. I'm starting to believe Calvinists are more philisophical than Catholics. Who's a thunk it?

[CindyDawg]

This reminded me of something funny. Do you remember probably over a year ago when you and Doug on a thread and he was getting his butt kicked and Jim had to go get him?

I started lurking after Dougs ping and people were getting very intense. A lot were in serious debate with you. Finally you said "I'm a Jew" and the whole thread just stopped for several minutes. Complete silence. I could just imagine the "do what's and what did he says" When I read in Rev. about the silence in Heaven I sometimes rember this and chuckle.

[malakhi]

Furthermore, the sovereignty of God means all that He decreed will come about, and in the precise manner that He decreed. No one can ignore or reject His decree. Again, this does not suggest God compels anyone to act against their will. Man's freedom to act according to his choice is within God's decree.

This completely glosses over the apparent contradiction.

God cannot be blamed for sin.

Asserted, but not proven.

Scriptures make it clear that there is no evil in God (Psalm 5:4; 92:15). Therefore, if scripture teaches that God is sovereign over evil, and it does, then this objection should not even be raised. For if the Bible doesn't have a problem with God being in control of sin and yet innocent, neither should we.

This comes closest to implying "its a mystery".

How can God be in control of sin and bring it about, but not be guilty of sinning?

If someone came and stabbed you in the stomach out of malice, that would clearly be sin. But if a surgeon cuts your stomach open to remove a tumor, no sin is present. Yet they both have done the same thing, they cut your stomach open with a knife. So what is different? The random attack was done out of malice, but the doctor has good intentions. Now, imagine that the doctor's knife is alive and it is evil and delights in causing you pain. We can see that even though the knife is delighting in cutting you open, the doctor would still not be morally guilty of sin because he is acting for your good.

This doesn't work. It says, in effect, that God makes us sin for our own good. But what about those who are made to sin and die in their sins? To continue the analogy, did they die on the operating table? What good did the physician do them? And how can they be held responsible for their own fatal disembowelment?

[HarleyD]

No, I think you're quite correct. Perhaps I wasn't very clear. There are mysteries that haven't been revealed. Even Paul (if you'll forgive my use of the New Testament) says we see in a mirror dimly.

SD is after me today. :O)

[HarleyD]

I want to know everything about everything. NOW! :O)

[malakhi]

Can you be taught about Christ by someone that denies Him?

I don't profess to teach about "Christ". I discuss scripture and ideas. As far as my beliefs go, I'm an open book. As with any other source, people are free to take what they find useful, and reject the rest.

I'm not interested in proselytizing or converting anyone. I might make an exception in your case, though. You'd look nice perched on my trophy case. ;o)

[Quester]

I want to know everything about everything. NOW! :O)

Yes ... but is that a scripturally reasonable expectation ?

[malakhi]

:o)

[malakhi]

I think this is as near agreement as we are likely to reach.

Peace! :o)

[malakhi]

I want to know everything about everything. NOW! :O)

LOL, a man after my own heart! ;o)

[SoothingDave]

I must say. I'm starting to believe Calvinists are more philisophical than Catholics.

LOL. But we're more "mystery." So it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

SD

[HarleyD]

"God is the author of sin."

God control sin. God uses sin for His purpose. God agrees to allow sin to happen to others (Job) But God is NOT the author of sin (see Ezekiel 28).

[SoothingDave]

SD is after me today.

You're here. :-)

You can always pile on me here

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Didn't want to post the daily readings on the last post of a thread ... bump.

Imagine the ramifications. :-)

[restornu]

God is absolutely sovereign.

Sin is contrary to God's will.

Do you think God was ever tempted or have the capasity to sin?

Or more to the point -

Could God violate the Unversals Laws and still be God?

[malakhi]

Who created the "universal laws"?

[RnMomof7]

I asked you first.

And I answered you with a question. Did not God ordain a sin that His wrath might be assuaged? Or do you believe that God only hoped that Jesus would shed His blood?

This is the question. Did God ordain that Joseph be sold into slavery ? Did God ordain the lies and deceit of Jacob?

God does not have to actively push men into sin, all He need do is remove His restraining hand and man will choose to act according to his nature.

[al_c]

Imagine the ramifications. :-)

LOL!

[IMRight]

Catholic politicians scolded

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1118309/posts

Candidates who claim to be "Catholic" but who publicly ignore Catholic teaching about the sanctity of human life are offering a dishonest public witness. They may try to look Catholic and sound Catholic, but unless they act Catholic in their public service and political choices, they're really a very different kind of creature. And real Catholics should vote accordingly

That makes three I think.

Looks like some of the bishops are going to make a stand this election season.