The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Quester]

God doesn't cause the rejection of Himself. Mankind is already destined for Hell. God elects His chosen and it is God who RESCUES His chosen from Hell. A vast difference in perspective.

Well, of course Calvinists believe that God causes the rejection of Himself.

In fact, per your belief, it is part of His pre-determined plan.

[snerkel]

Well, of course Calvinists believe that God causes the rejection of Himself.

In fact, per your belief, it is part of His pre-determined plan.

Could you show where this belief is found?

[al_c]

("We must remember that Satan has his miracles, too." John Calvin

Huh?! Name one.

[HarleyD]

Perhaps I don't understand your point.

There is nothing to reject. We belong in Hell. There is nothing within us that says we belong in Heaven.

God saves the elect.

[Alex Murphy]

God doesn't cause the rejection of Himself. Mankind is already destined for Hell. God elects His chosen and it is God who RESCUES His chosen from Hell. A vast difference in perspective.

Always amazes me how many people can quote John 3:16, and some of them might even know John 3:17, but just how few have ever read John 3:18-19....

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil.

[drstevej]

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Ro 9:20 Nay but, O {Ar}m{ini}an, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

[malakhi]

ROFLOL!!! :o)

[HarleyD]

Here's three:

Exodus 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. (there’s others)

Job 2:7 Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

1 Chronicles 21:1 [2 Sam 24:1-25] Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.

You should never think Satan can't do miracles. He offered our Lord Jesus all the kingdoms of this world and all their glory. Quite an offer and a legitimate one at that.

[al_c]

Disclaimer: If you want on or off of this ping list, FReepmail me.

Repent, and be baptized, every one of you. (Acts 2:38)

Tuesday, April 13, 2004
Tuesday in the Octave of Easter

First Reading: Psalm: Gospel:

Acts 2:36-41 Psalm 33:4-5, 18-20, 22 John 20:11-18 Idleness begets a life of discontent. It develops self-love, which is the cause of all our miseries, and renders us unworthy to receive the favors of divine love.  -- St. Ignatius Loyola

The following is, as usual, from The Word Among Us:

Repent, and be baptized, every one of you. (Acts 2:38) These words of Peter to the crowd on Pentecost Sunday seem to have taken on a life of their own. For the first few centuries, this pattern of evangelization, repentance, and then baptism was the main way people experienced conversion and became members of the church. As time went on, however, the church began baptizing infants and then sought to evangelize them over time so that they would experience conversion.

While this model has brought millions of people to the Lord, it's important to remember that baptism is only the first step. The faith that a child receives at baptism is like a seed that must be planted in good soil. For children--or anyone else, for that matter--to receive the full blessings of baptism, evangelization and conversion are necessary. That's why the church teaches that parents are the "first heralds" of faith (CCC, 2225). It's parents who are called to create a Christian atmosphere, bearing witness to the joy of receiving the Eucharist, the blessings of prayer, and the freedom from sin that comes through Jesus' cross.

If you are a parent, you probably wonder whether you have the faith, the spiritual insight, or the strength of will to nurture your children's faith successfully. As parents, we want to nourish our family's faith, but our own faith doesn't seem strong enough. We want to build a Christian atmosphere in our homes, but we're not always sure how to do it. And then we face the ongoing challenge of the battle against sin and temptation in our own lives.

But none of this should discourage us. The repentance that Peter called for is not a one-time act meant exclusively for new converts. Every time we repent--and especially when we celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation--the floodgates of heaven are opened, and our baptismal seed is nourished and strengthened.

Don't downplay this great gift of repentance. It may not be the entire answer to building a Christian home, but it does play a necessary role. Who knows? Maybe the witness of your repentance will cut your children to the heart and move them to ask you, "What can we do to know Jesus better?"

"Dear Lord, fill every home with your mercy. Show all parents how to be your first heralds of faith."

----------

God bless.

AC

[SoothingDave]

"To answer that more clearly, they were recipients of special gifts."

This is the answer I heard for 30 years. Don't you think it's a little unfair of God to "save" some and not others?

I think God can and does prod along history at certain points. But He never eliminates free will. You cite Jonah, and yet read it entirely differently from me. Yes, God really wanted Jonah to go to Ninevah. But ultimately Jonah was the one who had to decide to go or not.

You also fail to understand that in citing various Scriptural occurances of God interveneing and then drawing a general principle that the things found in Scripture are by definition extraordinary. We know what happened to Jonah. We don't know what happened to Herman, his cousin from his mother's side.

This is the same position us Calvins are always accused of.

Yes, exactly. Because you fixate on sovereignity to the point that all is God's decision. So you make the fate of absolutely every soul the decision of God's. He offers grace to some and not to others.

However, in the Reform doctrine God shows no partiality.

This is an absolutely, stunning, mind-boggling statement. Whatever can you mean? Didn't God decide before creation was created to save some and damn others? This isn't partiality?

SD

[al_c]

I wouldn't exactly call those "miracles." And as in the case of Pilate, Satan only has power that has been granted him by God. In other words, God allowed all those things you quoted.

[al_c]

According to my sports history calendar: April 13, 1982 - With the Islander dynasty on the verge of crumbling in Game 5 of a first-round Stanley Cup playoff series against Pittsburgh, a loose puck along the boards bounces right over the stick blade of Penguins defenseman Randy Carlyle, last year's Norris Trophy winner. John Tonelli pounces on the giveaway for the tying goal for the Isles with only 2 1/2 minutes left. In sudden-death overtime, it's Tonelli who comes through again at the 6:19 mark to eliminate the pesky Pens, who forced a fifth game after trailing the series 2-0. The Isles go on to win their third successive Stanley Cup after their narrow escape. But, Dave ... sometimes it is something bad about Pittsburgh. ;o)

Happy Birthday to: Bill Koch, 1943 Marvin Webster, 1952 Davis Love III, 1964 Dana Barros, 1967 Bo Outlaw, 1971

[SoothingDave]

Also note I have not pinged people I'm referring to in this post now, which I have always assumed to be the polite norm on Free Republic.

Of course it is, here and everywhere on FR.

But you guys are very strict about who gets pinged, and who doesn't, especially by newcomers. Since the NES isn't my "home base," I'll play by your rules. Just not very often.

No. Certain people may have asked you to stop talking to them in general. They didn't want you to continue talking about them, but to then violate courtesy by not pinging them.

SD

[Alex Murphy]

We know what happened to Jonah. We don't know what happened to Herman, his cousin from his mother's side.

That's the fault of you Catholics, for corrupting the original texts of the Bible, doncha know.

[SoothingDave]

Why would you think that the way God handles His prophets is at all indicative of how He handles the rest of us?

Yes, you've put this well.

SD

[SoothingDave]

So original sin is passed on biologically?

I don't think "biologically" is exactly the right word, but yes. It's not something that can be found under a microscope or in the DNA. But it is a congenital condition common to all humans.

Adam and Eve were created in Eden. When they were expelled, all of their descendents have been born outside of the garden.

SD

[SoothingDave]

The only way to know that you are one of the elect is to act like it.

If it's an act you aren't saved regardless of how "spiritual" you present yourself. Rev. talks about this . Jesus doesn't know them.

"Act" has more than one meaning. Why assume I mean to feign or to pretend? Think of 1 John and "walk in the light." It doesn't say "pretend to walk in the light."

SD

[Quester]

There is nothing to reject.

Are you saying that God does not make overtures to men ?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

[SoothingDave]

You cannot say that the Sovereign God created everything, chooses who will serve Him and then simultaneously pretend He does not cause those who do not worship Him to choose their course of faith and action.

The basic gist of the objection to Calvinism. Never have I seen it addressed in any logical way. Probably cause it can't be.

SD

[Quester]

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Yes ... but God also claims to be loving.

Would it be loving to only offer sight to just a few of any group of blind children you had the opportunity to treat ?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.