The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[CindyDawg]

See Matthew 19:26. That should cover that God can do anything He wants to.

[the808bass]

Only the Free-Will that would allow you to not act according to your nature.

This statement does not make sense except to a person steeped in Calvinism, which I find very telling. You will find it enlightening and exciting and more evidence that only the elect understand. Round and round.

[the808bass]

Jhn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him.

And so up until that time, Satan was not in him?

[the808bass]

One more thing Mack, Far fewer Calvinists move to Arminianism than Arminians move to Calvinism. That is because serious study (not cutting and pasting work that agrees with you ) will bring one to see the truth.

Do more "more-or-less" orthodox Christians become Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or do more Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses become "more-or-less" orthodox Christians? But that's not a valid argument is it?

[the808bass]

But Calvinists don't call anyone "schmuck" like I was called last week.

If we give you a medal for enduring for the cross like you did, would you shut up about it?

[the808bass]

It's really My Little PonyTM.

I get an image of Marcia Clark in the OJ trial going ballistic over being called "hysterical" and the "obvious gender implications in the word."

[the808bass]

They aren't the most imposing opponents... no.

I'll bite yore leg off.

Runnin away, are ya? You're yella!

[ksen]

The fact that God's plans are acted out in the course of Human history is no more a point in favor of Calvinism than it is Arminianism. You will disagree with me. But that is because you are a Calvinist. Heilgeshicte is the wondrous plan of God through time and space and it has been enacted exactly as the Almight has seen fit. And yet human clay has been part of that process. Not in the role of a marionette, but as an active participant, choosing to do both evil and good, God knowing each step which would be taken at every turn and yet still allowing choice to be made.

Doesn't the phrase "determinate counsel" make it mean that God did a bit more than just "foreknow?"

[the808bass]

If our salvation, our eternal bliss in Paradise, is assured and actually brings pleasure not only to ourselves but to God, the creator of the universe, how much more comfort do we need?

By "our" you mean?

[the808bass]

As for your church situation, I highly doubt they "tried to take over."

Based upon what, exactly? Your sincere belief that Cavlinists (that's my new spelling for it, sorry) would not do such a thing?

[the808bass]

Either way, by his own admission, his theology was tried and found wanting.

You are an interesting person and it makes me want to respond to your vapid evaluations of theological validity. And then I sit really still for a second and it passes.

[the808bass]

I note you do not address the issues of the post, but instead head over to personal attacks.

That's what you said two scant posts after you said.....
You have a second grade defense of Arminianism. Well done. You can come to the front of the class to get a pop after nap time.

I'm sarcastic and cynical in my posts and I can frequently get personal. But I admit it. Join with me in admitting. It's quite liberating.

[ksen]

No He's not Kevin. Per your senerio He's picking and choosing. No special reason why. Pilate did it to please the people. Governors do it sparringly if a doubt. P. Clinton pardened... never mind. Why would God do something like this?

CD what special reason would God have to bestow UNmerited favor upon us? I believe His reason is, as the Bible states, His own good Will. What do you think?

Would you feel differently then if you weren't just talking about "those people" and it was affecting you personally?

This does affect me personally. I have many, many family members who have been told and shown the Gospel. They have rejected it over and over. So odds are, though not 100%, that a whole slew of them will be in Hell when they die. They aren't "those people" to me.

And yet knowing that, I can still praise God for what mercy He has shown in my family. God doesn't owe me anything and He doesn't owe my family anything. I take that back, He owes us Hell. The fact that He doesn't let us all have what He owes us makes Him wonderful beyond comparison.

As far as my own Election all I can do is trust what He has revealed in the Bible. I have put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. I love Him and have a compelling desire to serve Him. He has promised that those who believe on His Son will not perish. That is the definition of who one of the Elect are: one who believes on the Son of God.

[the808bass]

It is my position that God transcends time (He created it, after all). So to speak of God "knowing the future" is a misnomer. It is a failure of our limited language that we fall into describing Him this way. God doesn't "know the future", because this implies that He exists along a particular trajectory of time. Instead, He simply KNOWS.

Excellent.

[ksen]

This statement does not make sense except to a person steeped in Calvinism, which I find very telling. You will find it enlightening and exciting and more evidence that only the elect understand. Round and round.

Is it? Can we act contrary to our nature without the Grace of God acting on us first?

Can God act contrary to His nature?

I think those are two valid questions and I'd be interested to read your answers to them.

BTW, how is your sister doing? It's been quite a while since I've seen her post.

[CindyDawg]

You confuse me. Your friends (and I don't mean this mean spirited towards you) at least seem consistant most of the time. On 1 post you tell me that Gods grace spares some and that He chooses them for no special reason and then you post that anyone who accepts Christ as their savior is saved. You were easier to understand when you were just plain baptist.

[the808bass]

Doesn't the phrase "determinate counsel" make it mean that God did a bit more than just "foreknow?"

Does "ordained plan" not sound as Calvinist? "Determined course of action" doesn't have quite the force of "determinate counsel" at least in how it sounds. The fact that Jesus's sacrifice happened according to God's will is no surprise to God. Nor is it a shock to the Arminian.

[CindyDawg]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1114866/posts

[Dr. Eckleburg]

All this attention from you is flattering, but if you got out more often, perhaps you'd make some new friends.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If you have faith that Christ, Son of God and equal member of the holy Trinity, died for your sins; if you repent of your sins and try to live a life that brings glory to God's name; and if you believe that you are saved by faith through God's grace alone -- SURPRISE! You're probably one of the elect.

Arminians, like Roman Catholics, think they have a hand in their salvation. Calvinists believe, as did the giants of the Reformation, that "Salvation is of the Lord."

It's a difference in perspective, and not a small one.