The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Quester]

P.S. I forgot to add ... patience is a gift of the Spirit of God.

God, Himself, exercises copious amounts of it.

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And I, too, have never hit the abuse button, Mack.

I pinged the mod (in the open, non-anonymously) a few days ago when a poster used a derogatory term that certainly wasn't Christian, and didn't reflect well on the forum. (The only censorship I believe should be on FR is for cursing or for racial slurs; this was both.)

The poster apologized.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Quite a few believe in Eternal Security.

I've found that a lot of people say they believe in Eternal Security because, of course, it makes sense and is Scriptural.

But when questioned, they back off, and fall back into tired cliches, insisting they still could loose their salvation if they goofed up big-time. That's because they usually believe man has the power to surprise God, and that God's Eternal Decree is more a "wish list."

Like so many things, they need to follow their beliefs to their illogical conclusions.

Try asking them if they could still trip up and go to hell. I think the answers might surprise you.

More's the pity. For Arminians, there's no real security in God; only the tenuous hope in their good behavior, wise choices and God's suggestions.

[JohnnyM]

I believe in full blown eternal security and that no one can fall out of the hands of God. We are a new creation born into sonship. We can no ways be unborn or lose this sonship than your son could ever cease being anything other than your son, or lose his sonship.

JM

[ksen]

Give that man a -P!

Does that mean you are a _-_-_-_-P one-pointer? ;^)

[JohnnyM]

OSAS is one-point calvinism. I may even be a three pointer. I differ with Calvinism in the aspect of man's choice in salvation. Calvinist believe regeneration precedes belief and I still believe belief precedes regeneration.

JM

[restornu]

This is far out I did not read Quester post only your and White Mountain, yet Quester too was quoting "The Lord's Prayer!"

Now if this is what Jesus taught we should pray to OUR Heavenly Fahter!

Jesus was here on earth the Father is in Heaven!

We pray to the Father in the name of his Son Jesus Christ!

In that prayer is instructions.

How his children should live and treat each other.

That our will should if we love the Lord be in accord with the will of the Heavenly Father and work in the Name of Jesus Christ!

[ksen]

OSAS is one-point calvinism. I may even be a three pointer. I differ with Calvinism in the aspect of man's choice in salvation. Calvinist believe regeneration precedes belief and I still believe belief precedes regeneration.

Ok, how about T-_-L-_-P? All you need to do now is buy a vowel. ;^)

[snerkel]

The swarm will have that pre trib stuff wooped out of you when they find out thats what you beleieve.

Not true. As a member of the Swarm, I too am a Pre-Tribber.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

That's encouraging. Although I could disown my son legally, and he would no longer be my son, which is why we shouldn't equate God, our heavenly Father, with our earthly fathers 100%. And God goes to great lengths to explain that sonship is no longer determined by "bloodlines" but by faith in Christ, so that we are related to God now by His eternal decree and not our genes. But I get what you're saying.

So if you are now saved forever, and cannot be lost, do you believe you were always His? Before you were born, were you among the elect?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Here is a book you guys might want to read and at no extra charge I'll thrown in a review.

The Other Side of Calvinism.
By: Laurence M. Vance

Calvinism Exposed as an Unbiblical System, March 3, 2002
Reviewer: Michael T. (see more about me) from Charlotte, North Carolina USA
Dr. Vance gets 5 stars for this important work.

I was once an ardent Calvinist -- supralapsarian, no air, die-hard John Gill-style predestinarian. I heard the logic of the 5 points over and over again and was ready for any objection from the irrational fool who would dare challenge the system. Eventually I saw some cracks in the system not only when held up to the light of Scripture but also as I observed that members of the 5-point community displayed some of the most intolerant and rancorous behavior one could imagine as they attacked one another in various media - especially the Internet.

I frequently participated in food fights among the Calvinistic "brethren" over the web which included charges of "antinomian," "heretic," "apostate," "romanist," as reconstructionists, covenantors, various reformed groups, sovereign gracers, Amyraldians(the real heretics) lashed out to defend the purity of their own calvinistic stances. Almost all arguments boiled down to "my interpretation of the Doctrines of Grace is better than yours,"...believe it, the level of ego casualty in the 5-point clique is beyond measure.

Later, I came across this book titled "The Other Side of Calvinism" and decided to investigate it so I could blast the heretic who would dare challenge the citadel of Calvinism. The book is sourced from thousands of statements by Calvinists as the author examines the validity of the teachers and tenents of this philosophical system. In a thorough and convincing manner, this book shows the the conclusion is a resounding "unbiblical" and it has the Calvinist community hopping mad. I see lots of "poison the well" comments and name calling in the book reviews from my old fraternity but they cannot escape the facts.

As Dr. Vance puts it "Calvinists have one thing in common: God, by a sovereign, eternal decree, has determined before the foundation of the world who shall be saved and who shall be lost. To obscure the real issue, a vocabulary has been invented to confuse and confound the Christian. The arguments about supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism, total depravity and total inability reprobation and peterition, synergism and monergism, free will and free agency, common grace and special grace, general calling and effectual calling.....are all immaterial. The stumbling block for the Calvinist is the SIMPLICITY OF SALVATION (emphasis mine), so upon rejecting this, a SYSTEM (emphasis mine) has to be constructed whereby salvation is made a mysterious, arcane, incomprehensible decree of God. Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they never are in the Bible but only in the philosophical speculations....of calvinism."

I guess my problem with Calvinism today is the fact that one has to be TAUGHT it as a system. Its main tenets do not readily appear from a plain reading of Scripture. Calvinistic soteriology of the extreme variety where intensive interpretation of the 5 points is hammered into a system takes lots of INFERENCE from different passages collected together and presented as a product of inductive reasoning -- this is what the Bible teaches about: SALVATION.

Unfortunately the problem with inductive reasoning is that unless you complete the induction and collect ALL that the Bible says about a topic, you are likely to arrive at a false conclusion. Calvinists do this very thing for they select their favorite verses and repeat them over and over (Acts 13:48, John 6:37,44) and throw them together out of context and IGNORE the verses that teach against their system like 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9 and others. They also enter theories into their system that are not taught in the Bible. As A.W. Tozer once said, "the essence of idolatry is to imagine things about God and then preach them as truth" and Calvinism is guilty of this very charge.

Therefore, Calvinists spin out abstruse and academic theories like Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Grace, Supra-infra-sub-lapsarianism, -- theories that are typically not arrived at by the typical believing student of the Bible. No, it takes theological eggheads the like late Augustine, John Gill, or Beza to develop and teach theories like these and teach them as biblical soteriology. The result is a loss of Biblical truth for some vain and extreme traditions of men.

The author is no Arminian either. He holds to holds to assurance but disputes the intensive interpretations of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, or Limited Atonement. His Biblical conclusions are then railed out by the theological elites of Calvinism to be arminian and heretical.

I find it interesting that these 5-pointers are constantly lamenting that their system is misunderstood -- let alone the fact we are flooded with materials about how the system works. It is much more likely that more and more people are seeing that it is impossible to live consistently within the strict and extreme framework of 5-point Calvinism for it would be impossible to communicate the Gospel to anyone and God would be misrepresented as a grotesque, sadistic, and capricious monster -- all just and no love. The attributes of God, however, cannot be logically separated so the system of extreme calvinism skews God's justice over His omnibenevolence and thus misrepresents God in the worst way.

Everyone Christian should read this book -- especially Baptists. Buy it, study and highlight it, and then go share the Gospel with "whosoever will." I also recommend "Chosen But Free" by Norman Geisler.

BigMack

[JohnnyM]

God foreknew me before the world began and He foreknew that I would believe in Him, that does not mean that He made the decision for me, which is why I cannot buy a vowel ksen :)

JM

[Dr. Eckleburg]

LOL. Johnny, to paraphrase Meatloaf, "three outta five ain't bad."

[BibChr]

Is this an intentional parody, or is that seriously your view, in your own voice?

Dan

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You guys should go back and read the pre trib debate a while back amoung your swarm members, it was quite eye opening, I don't have a link but I sure one of the swarm can guide you there.

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Not my voice.

BigMack

[snerkel]

No need. I know what they believe and why they believe it. Doesn't change my stance in the least.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I do agree with the guy.

I'm reading the book are you?

BigMack

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I'm talking about the way they treated each other on the thread, it was eye opening.

BigMack

[JohnnyM]

This is where I stand.

T is total depravity. I agree with this to the extent that we are born sinners. I'm not too keen on the idea that one such as this can do nothing good or pleasing... ever.

L is Limited Atonement. I agree with this in that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is only effectual to those who believe in Him. He made have died for all men, but only those men who place His Blood on the doorpost will be saved.

P is Persistence of the Saints. OSAS.

Unconditional Election and Irresistable Grace remove man's free will choice to choose or reject Him and this is where I disagree with calvinism.

JM