[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Here is a book you guys might want to read and at no extra charge I'll thrown in a review.

The Other Side of Calvinism.
By: Laurence M. Vance

Calvinism Exposed as an Unbiblical System, March 3, 2002
Reviewer: Michael T. (see more about me) from Charlotte, North Carolina USA
Dr. Vance gets 5 stars for this important work.

I was once an ardent Calvinist -- supralapsarian, no air, die-hard John Gill-style predestinarian. I heard the logic of the 5 points over and over again and was ready for any objection from the irrational fool who would dare challenge the system. Eventually I saw some cracks in the system not only when held up to the light of Scripture but also as I observed that members of the 5-point community displayed some of the most intolerant and rancorous behavior one could imagine as they attacked one another in various media - especially the Internet.

I frequently participated in food fights among the Calvinistic "brethren" over the web which included charges of "antinomian," "heretic," "apostate," "romanist," as reconstructionists, covenantors, various reformed groups, sovereign gracers, Amyraldians(the real heretics) lashed out to defend the purity of their own calvinistic stances. Almost all arguments boiled down to "my interpretation of the Doctrines of Grace is better than yours,"...believe it, the level of ego casualty in the 5-point clique is beyond measure.

Later, I came across this book titled "The Other Side of Calvinism" and decided to investigate it so I could blast the heretic who would dare challenge the citadel of Calvinism. The book is sourced from thousands of statements by Calvinists as the author examines the validity of the teachers and tenents of this philosophical system. In a thorough and convincing manner, this book shows the the conclusion is a resounding "unbiblical" and it has the Calvinist community hopping mad. I see lots of "poison the well" comments and name calling in the book reviews from my old fraternity but they cannot escape the facts.

As Dr. Vance puts it "Calvinists have one thing in common: God, by a sovereign, eternal decree, has determined before the foundation of the world who shall be saved and who shall be lost. To obscure the real issue, a vocabulary has been invented to confuse and confound the Christian. The arguments about supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism, total depravity and total inability reprobation and peterition, synergism and monergism, free will and free agency, common grace and special grace, general calling and effectual calling.....are all immaterial. The stumbling block for the Calvinist is the SIMPLICITY OF SALVATION (emphasis mine), so upon rejecting this, a SYSTEM (emphasis mine) has to be constructed whereby salvation is made a mysterious, arcane, incomprehensible decree of God. Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they never are in the Bible but only in the philosophical speculations....of calvinism."

I guess my problem with Calvinism today is the fact that one has to be TAUGHT it as a system. Its main tenets do not readily appear from a plain reading of Scripture. Calvinistic soteriology of the extreme variety where intensive interpretation of the 5 points is hammered into a system takes lots of INFERENCE from different passages collected together and presented as a product of inductive reasoning -- this is what the Bible teaches about: SALVATION.

Unfortunately the problem with inductive reasoning is that unless you complete the induction and collect ALL that the Bible says about a topic, you are likely to arrive at a false conclusion. Calvinists do this very thing for they select their favorite verses and repeat them over and over (Acts 13:48, John 6:37,44) and throw them together out of context and IGNORE the verses that teach against their system like 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9 and others. They also enter theories into their system that are not taught in the Bible. As A.W. Tozer once said, "the essence of idolatry is to imagine things about God and then preach them as truth" and Calvinism is guilty of this very charge.

Therefore, Calvinists spin out abstruse and academic theories like Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Grace, Supra-infra-sub-lapsarianism, -- theories that are typically not arrived at by the typical believing student of the Bible. No, it takes theological eggheads the like late Augustine, John Gill, or Beza to develop and teach theories like these and teach them as biblical soteriology. The result is a loss of Biblical truth for some vain and extreme traditions of men.

The author is no Arminian either. He holds to holds to assurance but disputes the intensive interpretations of Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, or Limited Atonement. His Biblical conclusions are then railed out by the theological elites of Calvinism to be arminian and heretical.

I find it interesting that these 5-pointers are constantly lamenting that their system is misunderstood -- let alone the fact we are flooded with materials about how the system works. It is much more likely that more and more people are seeing that it is impossible to live consistently within the strict and extreme framework of 5-point Calvinism for it would be impossible to communicate the Gospel to anyone and God would be misrepresented as a grotesque, sadistic, and capricious monster -- all just and no love. The attributes of God, however, cannot be logically separated so the system of extreme calvinism skews God's justice over His omnibenevolence and thus misrepresents God in the worst way.

Everyone Christian should read this book -- especially Baptists. Buy it, study and highlight it, and then go share the Gospel with "whosoever will." I also recommend "Chosen But Free" by Norman Geisler.

BigMack

[BibChr]

Is this an intentional parody, or is that seriously your view, in your own voice?

Dan

[ksen]

Thanks for the review Mack.

I guess my problem with Calvinism today is the fact that one has to be TAUGHT it as a system.

The reviewer should have trouble with Christianity in general because it too must be taught. In fact our Lord commanded for it to be taught.

• Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; - Mt 28:19

• Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even until the end of the world. Amen. - Mt 28:20

Christ commands for His doctrines to be taught, which means they aren't just naturally known.

• For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. - He 5:12

Christianity must be taught. So to argue against Calvinism because it must be taught is to argue against Christianity as well.

[CindyDawg]

Becky

If it's in the bible is it still cursing? I'll pick up the book Mack recommends but I'm still on chapter 2 of sea biscuit and1 of ATKM. Couldn't ride Okie today:'( He has a 3-4 inch cut or bite on his right side. If I put the cinch on right next to his legs I barely miss it but any slipping and it rubs. The instructor said since I have the felt one that wait a day or two and then ride. Thinking about getting some of the paint on bandaides. I really wanted to ride the trails tomorrow but I don't want to cause him pain. I was cleared as long as I keep him at a walk and take someone with me me at first so that he doesn't resist leaving the ranch. She told me that when I take out by myself though to let her know so she knows where to coming looking for me if I don't come back. I think she was teasing me, maybe:')

[Invincibly Ignorant]

believe it, the level of ego casualty in the 5-point clique is beyond measure

LOL. He must have visited in here before. hehe.

[lockeliberty]

The stumbling block for the Calvinist is the SIMPLICITY OF SALVATION (emphasis mine), so upon rejecting this, a SYSTEM (emphasis mine) has to be constructed whereby salvation is made a mysterious, arcane, incomprehensible decree of God. Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they never are in the Bible but only in the philosophical speculations....of calvinism."

The stumbling block of Dr Vance and most arminians is KISS (keep it simple and stupid) Christianity.

2 Peter 1:5-
Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral exellence, and in your moral exellence, knowledge...

[RnMomof7]

Mack I had that book 5 years ago, I have read it and used it's observations to "fight" with the Calvinists.

This man is only as "credible " as you choose to make him.When I sat down and really READ the bible, not skipping over or making excuses for the hard verses that teach election I realized that God is indeed sovereign.

This mans work is less credible that the works of Spurgeon , Edwards, Bottner, Piper,Sproul etc.

His is not a scholarly book , but a book with an agenda . He mis reads some scripture to make his point...some thing that someone that only has a Sunday interest in the Bible will surely miss

One more thing Mack, Far fewer Calvinists move to Arminianism than Arminians move to Calvinism. That is because serious study (not cutting and pasting work that agrees with you ) will bring one to see the truth.

[Diamond]

Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they [sic] never are in the Bible but only in the philosophical speculations....of calvinism."

1. Somebody help me out here. What else would election and predestination be about, on an individual level, if not salvation?

2. From the review: "... I see lots of "poison the well" comments and name calling in the book reviews from my old fraternity but they cannot escape the facts...."
[Then in the very next paragraph the reviewer quotes from Dr. Vance:]
"...To obscure the real issue, a vocabulary has been invented to confuse and confound the Christian..."

Let's see; people who disagree with Dr. Vance have deliberately conspired to invent a vocabulary with the express intent of confusing and confounding Christians in order to obscure the real issue. A very neat trick it is to be able to in one breath complain about others poisoning the well, and then in the very next breath, by proxy no less, do the the same thing oneself. It appears to me that the reviewer's "repentance" is half-hearted.

Cordially,

[Tares]

Unfortunately the problem with inductive reasoning is that unless you complete the induction and collect ALL that the Bible says about a topic, you are likely to arrive at a false conclusion. Calvinists do this very thing for they select their favorite verses and repeat them over and over (Acts 13:48, John 6:37,44) and throw them together out of context and IGNORE the verses that teach against their system like 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9 and others.

Talk about out of context. The author should read 1 Timothy 2:1-3 before citing verse 4. The “all men” in verse 4, in context, refers to men from all walks of life, not to each and every individual on the earth. Also, anyone who insists upon interpreting the “all” in 1 Timothy 2:4 to mean “each and every” must explain what happened to all that tax money the Chinese peasants paid when Caesar Augustus sent out a decree, “that all the world should be taxed” (Luke 2:1), and that “all [including each and every Chinese peasant?] went to be taxed” (Luke 2:3).

In 2 Peter 3:9, the “us-ward”, “any”, and “all” that Peter referred to are the saints of God, the elect. Peter’s epistles were written specifically to believers, as the first sentence of his second epistle (and first epistle as well) clearly states:

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord

Therefore, Calvinists spin out abstruse and academic theories like Covenant of Redemption, the Covenant of Grace, Supra-infra-sub-lapsarianism, -- theories that are typically not arrived at by the typical believing student of the Bible. No, it takes theological eggheads the like late Augustine, John Gill, or Beza to develop and teach theories like these and teach them as biblical soteriology. The result is a loss of Biblical truth for some vain and extreme traditions of men.

Can't trust those dead white men. This is typical Christian anti-intellectualism. Read 2 Peter 3:15-18. Christian ignorance is not bliss.

[HarleyD]

Well, you’re talking to the wrong person on this one. No one taught me anything about this-certainly not about Calvin.

For thirty years I’ve never even heard of Calvin, Reformation, God’s sovereignty or anything else in the Protestant (Baptist-focus mostly) church. During that time there were MANY passages of scriptures and theology I couldn’t reconcile (foreknowledge, predestined, etc.). I just kept them on the back burner.

Then I heard one sermon by John MacArthur (who I didn’t know was a Calvinist) on Philippians 2:6-11 and the sovereign grace of our Lord Jesus and that was enough for me. No one had ever talked about God’s sovereignty that I can remember in all my years being a Christian and attending many different types of denominations. I started researching God’s sovereignty and that landed me to the Reformation and John Calvin. (No one else talks about it.)

In reading though the TULIP I see nothing that conflicted with any scripture (all 5 points). In fact, many of the verses that I’ve always struggled with (e.g. the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, the salvation of Jeremiah and John the Baptist before they were born, etc.) suddenly are clear to me. To ensure this theology was correct (because of all the years of never hearing about this) I looked through pages and pages of the writings of the early church fathers, creeds and the Reformation. After spending over a year researching this on both the pros and cons, I’m convinced this is EXACTLY what the church originally thought and the church has moved away from this concept.

Don’t take my word for it. Mark down every time you hear anyone talk about God’s sovereign will. You’ll only need the back of a postage stamp.

What’s astonishing to me is how this seemingly innocuous viewpoint can generate such animosity and hatred among believers of other persuasions as is evident by your references. Whenever I start talking about God’s sovereignty I always get the “Yes, but…” as if this is an attribute like His love, mercy, or anger. God’s sovereignty is not an attribute. It’s God’s position. And the only way to truly understand God’s love is to understand God’s position.

[jude24]

Well, I'll be upfront: last time I saw someone try to present "the other side of Calvinism," I walked away unimpressed. Dave Hunt's What Love is This did not reflect AT ALL what Calvinists actually believe, but twisted it in the hopes of scoring points against a system that Hunt has embarked on a jihad against. Now, I haven't read Vance, but I'm guessing the same thing will happen: anti-Calvinists will be hardened in their hatred of Calvinism, and Calvinists will see their views as being misrepresented. Sorry, I've got better things to do than bang my head against the wall.

The arguments about supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism, total depravity and total inability reprobation and peterition, synergism and monergism, free will and free agency, common grace and special grace, general calling and effectual calling.....are all immaterial.

I agree, except about monergism and synergism. That's what it's all about: miss that, and you miss everything. \

Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they never are in the Bible but only in the philosophical speculations....of calvinism."

Now, that's just so much crap. I know the typical anti-calvinist line is that "oh, election is to service, not to salvation." Well, try reading 2The 2:10 without theological blinders on! "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

[rwfromkansas]

"Its main tenets do not readily appear from a plain reading of Scripture."

Um, yes they do. It is just because the church has bought into the Arminian reading that we don't see it until it is pointed out to us. Calvinism is all over Scripture.

And Vance is no moderate.....have looked at his book and it is pure trash and unfounded accusations.

[rwfromkansas]

You seem to think that we head out preaching the 5 points when trying to evangelize. Um.....no. We tell people of their sinfulness and need for God. We invite them to come. Even Calvin said predestination is not something that should be used for evangelism, but should be taught to Christians because it is used in SCripture as comfort for those who are ALREADY BELIEVERS.

Oh, by the way, you think God's covenant of grace is an obtuse and academic doctrine?

My word.