Disturbing excerpts from interview with Cardinal Mahony (leftist in charge of LA Diocese)

RE Congress website ^ | 02-20-04 | online interview

[AAABEST]

Leonel M: Mel Gibson's upcoming movie "The Passion of the Christ" has had more than its share of headlines for the last year or more. But what is the relationship of Gibson's church near Malibu to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles? Is it part of a schismatic group?

Cardinal: I know nothing about the Church in Malibu. It is certainly not in communion with the Universal Catholic Church nor the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

I have never met Mr. Gibson, and he does not participate in any parish of this Archdiocese. He, apparently, has chosen to live apart from the communion of the Catholic Church. I pray for him.

The Holy Spirit is promised to the Church, as well as the presence of Jesus: "Behold, I am with you all days until the end of the world." Those words were spoken to the Church, not to an individual in any century.

Moderator: We have several related questions about Mel Gibson; I'll try to summarize them. Many people have the impression that Mel Gibson is -- for lack of a better word -- a "regular" Catholic. Could you briefly explain the Catholic traditionalist movement?

Cardinal: Actually, there is no such thing as the "Catholic traditionalist, modernist, movement." Either one is in full communion with the Catholic Church, in unity with the Successor of Peter, or not. One cannot pick and choose which Pope to follow, especially dead ones, or which teaching to follow -- and then set aside the rest. Such people may be very nice people, but that doesn't make them "Catholic" in the true sense.

Even the media is beginning "to get it" about these groups. We must give full assent to the Creed and all that the Church teaches.

Moderator: So if Mel Gibson does not accept the Church's teachings as outlined in Vatican II documents, he's "not Catholic in the true sense"?

Cardinal: The Sixteen Documents of the Second Vatican Council constitute the accurate, authentic teaching of the Church. Those teachings are now contained in the Catechism of the Church. If one chooses to set aside any of those, then they choose to separate themselves from the unity of the Church. Keep in mind that the first temptation of Adam and Eve was precisely this: Satan told them, "you will be like gods, choosing good and evil." Wrong.

Moderator: Users also ask if you plan to see "The Passion of the Christ."

Cardinal: Someone has offered to give me a VHS of the movie, and I will view it.

Runecaster95: Is it acceptable for Catholics to participate in acts of devotion such as Zen meditation and Hindu chanting, providing the emphasis remains on Christ?

Cardinal: Any form of prayer and meditation that helps us deepen our life in Jesus Christ is a positive. We might call the same type of prayer "centering prayer," or "Christian mantra."

Jane M.: Who do you think goes to heaven? Do you think people of other religions will be there? Do people who haven't accepted Christ as their savior go to heaven when they die?

Cardinal: As the Second Vatican Council teaches us, it is the Church's belief that everyone goes to heaven "through the salvific merits of Jesus Christ." Therefore, if they belong to another faith community, we believe that it is still the merits of Jesus' Paschal Mystery that enables them to reach the Kingdom of God.

Keep in mind that each of us "chooses" our final destiny, and God continually calls to us to return home.

[AAABEST]

A bunch of people have gotten sinkspur's extremely disturbing FReepmails.

Funny he's the most vociferous "new Catholicism" defender and at the same time is always in the middle of all of the consternation. Very telling and ironic if you think about it long enough.

Then on top of it claims to be a man of the cloth. If he is then that in itself says a lot of the current state of our church and the entire direction we've taken.

[Antoninus]

And I hope you complained to the moderator about his private mails to your father.

What, have we all gotten these nasty-grams from the "good deacon"? I'm saving the couple that I've received for posterity.

[Askel5]

== You called him the most irritating person on FreeRepublic.

One of Sink's more damning statements.


Though it's the "attentions" -- however vicious -- of folks like Sinkspur that ensure irritating men like your father end up pearls of beauty where the Lord's concerned, I suspect.

[fatima]

Let's correct this:

Keep in mind if this is the same church that won't give sacraments to women who've been divorced and remarried(whether by their own choosing or not),
and having sex with with #2 husband.

[sinkspur]

Keep in mind if this is the same church that won't give sacraments to women who've been divorced and remarried(whether by their own choosing or not), and having sex with with #2 husband.

Why would a woman marry a second husband and not have sex with him?

She'd be better off unmarried.

[GirlShortstop]

Why would a woman marry a second husband and not have sex with him?
She'd be better off unmarried.

Only thing that I can think of is that divorcee has some sort of sham going, or in mind, and s/he thinks s/he'll gain legitimacy in marriage number two, three, etc.

[fatima]

The origin of the name Guadalupe has always been a matter of controversy. It is nevertheless believed that the name came about because of the translation from Nahuatl to Spanish of the words used by the Virgin during the apparition to Juan Bernardino, the ailing uncle of Juan Diego.
It is believed that Our Lady used the Aztec Nahuatl word of coatlaxopeuh which is pronounced "quatlasupe" and sounds remarkably like the Spanish word Guadalupe. Coa meaning serpent, tla being the noun ending which can be interpreted as "the", while xopeuh means to crush or stamp out. So Our Lady must have called herself the one "who crushes the serpent."

[fatima]

Not if he was impotent and they wanted companionship.

[sinkspur]

Not if he was impotent and they wanted companionship.

Just an FYI, an impotent man cannot contract a valid marriage in the Catholic Church.

[Antoninus]

It is believed that Our Lady used the Aztec Nahuatl word of coatlaxopeuh which is pronounced "quatlasupe" and sounds remarkably like the Spanish word Guadalupe. Coa meaning serpent, tla being the noun ending which can be interpreted as "the", while xopeuh means to crush or stamp out. So Our Lady must have called herself the one "who crushes the serpent."

That's very interesting. I never heard that before! Do you speak Nahuatl o solamente espanol?

[fatima]

Yes he can if he is open to life and he is not divorced,they might invent a pill or something-oh-they did. .

[fatima]

Antoninus,No ,I will learn soon.I learned this from a priest who also taught me that Guadalupe is in the center of America's,North and South.

[TotusTuus]

Serious question.

I'm back, having been gone a few days. I see others have responded to my comments. Joy.

If he has privately rejected that communion, is he still in communion because his dissent isn't public?

If it's private, how would anyone else know? God knows. All mortal sin is a separation from communion. There is always the sacrament of Penance. Yet none of us needs to be re-baptized. Priests and Bishops don't get re-ordained.

For example, if he knowingly and conciously defies the pope in a matter of faith, but makes it seem like a matter of not understanding him.

These type of politics have been going on since, well, the garden of Eden. While baptism removes original sin, its' effects of wounded nature remain to tempt us. Therefore, the dangers of these problems will remain till the end of time. The challenge for us is to remain obedient to the Lord - Who still works through even evil and wicked Priests and Bishops. Lord knows, the effects of the '70s and "liturgical experimentation" are still with us and apparently this Cardinal, in addition to a host of many other Bishops (who all seem to have grayer hair all the time), is a champion of them. History is not on his side.

If anyone has explicit and damning evidence against the Cardinal, pursue it through the Church's canon process. I don't know the specifics of how it works. The St. Joseph Foundation (I think that's the name) would. Ultimately, it would have to be the Pope who made the final decision to "fire" the Cardinal.

Consider this. Pope John Paul II will die some day. What if Cardinal Mahoney were elected in his place? Do we break trust with the Holy Spirit then? Through prayers for him, could the Cardinal become orthodox and holy again (I seriously do not know enough about him - one way or the other - to say he is or is not)? We've had wicked Popes before in our history, yet the Church has survived. I think emotions are running high. Regarding the posted article, I didn't see where the Cardinal showed heresy. Perhaps not the best answers concerning "centering prayer" or whatever it's called, but certainly not heresy.

[TotusTuus]

You know, in the old days, ....

Yes, we've had some pretty bads ones in the past. At a certain point in time, most of the Bishops in the East were ready to canonize the Arian heresy (Arius was a Bishop). The Holy Spirit protected the Church then, and will do so today and in the future.

I didn't see heresy in the posted article. Please clarify it for me if I missed it. Disobedience is not the answer.

[drstevej]

***Therefore, if they belong to another faith community, we believe that it is still the merits of Jesus' Paschal Mystery that enables them to reach the Kingdom of God.***

Splain that one.

[TotusTuus]

Yea, I know things are, and have been bad for many people in many Dioceses. Many have ldft the Church because of it. Hang in there. the Church has survived much worse in the past.

And then Keating left or was fired from the Bishop's abuse council, saying Mahoney was the last straw...

If the Cardinal is as bad (he may well be) as others are saying, if there is truly heretical ideas coming from him, log off FR and get that info to the Pope! Start the process!

Until then, he is the Ordinary of LA. Quite frankly, there is no heresy in his comments in the posted article.

[TotusTuus]

yes, we know.

I forgot. This is the problem. It is beginning to sound like others do not know.

[Snuffington]

I'm back, having been gone a few days. I see others have responded to my comments. Joy.

Heh. Been there. Welcome back in any case.

The challenge for us is to remain obedient to the Lord - Who still works through even evil and wicked Priests and Bishops.

To take this further, it would seem the ful challenge is to remain obedient to God before anything else. Meaning, if you believe a prelate is leading you astray from the Lord, you must not follow him.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: "Hence, notably, we cannot heed the behests of any human power no matter how venerable or undisputed as against the ordinances of God."

I don't see any call to blind obedience to a prelate in Catholic doctrine, and I never have. I do see great caution urged in defying one, and therefore find myself on the fence frequently in these matters. But since I cannot peer into human hearts, I cannot distinguish easily between schism and faith.

If anyone has explicit and damning evidence against the Cardinal, pursue it through the Church's canon process.

But in the mean time, follow him where your conscience tells you is heresy? Surely not.

Pursuing charges against the cardinal would be an act of charity. But it would be distinct from the act of obedience to God in defying the heresy itself.

Consider this. Pope John Paul II will die some day. What if Cardinal Mahoney were elected in his place? Do we break trust with the Holy Spirit then?

I prefer to think the Holy Spirit will prevent a formal heretic from ascending to the throne of Peter. If Mahoney is not one, and so should ascend, then I believe the Holy Spirit will prevent him from causing material harm to the body of faith, should it be entrusted to him (which is not to say he won't cause other sorts of harm.).

[livius]

Here's some more information on the Virgin of Guadalupe (the Spanish one):

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was given by Pope Gregory the Great to Bishop Leander of Sevilla. The image was lost for 600 years and then rediscovered, not by high ranking ecclesiastics, but by a simple shepherd under the influence of Heaven.

The Spanish image of the Guadalupe is an ancient wood carving draped with beautiful brocade garments that give it a triangular shape that was very much favored at the time. She is very different from the painting of Tepeyac, not only because of her Iberian-Byzantine appearance, but because she has the Baby Jesus in her left arm, and a scepter in the right hand, with a great golden crown on her head. The Guadalupe of Caceres, to which legend attributes a 6th century origin, was found on the banks of the Rio Guadalupe (Hidden River, in Arabic) in the Villuercas Mountains, around 1326, after the expulsion of the Moors from that region.

Treasured by the Spanish people since its presentation in the year 580. during the terrifying times of the Muslim invasion, in the year 711, the image was hidden for safekeeping. A report states that it was hidden in a cave under the bell tower of the church; another claims that it was buried in an iron chest. In any case, what is certain is that it was hidden in the province of Caceres, along with the papers documenting its history. The persons who protected the image probably died during the conquest, for which reason the image was lost for centuries.

Christianity suffered for many years during the Moorish occupation, but devotion to the Mother of God was maintained in secret, to flourish again after the liberation. Great excitement was aroused when, in 1326, a shepherd named Gil Cordero claimed that while he was searching for a lost sheep, a radiant Lady emerged from the bushes. After showing him the site where he was to dig to uncover the treasure, she asked that a chapel be built for her.

[fatima]

grammarman,My understanding is you can build a chapel-you can-not have Mass said there without permission from the local parish,if they do not know you or have questions about you they can ask the Bishop.Certain orders in their areas do have permission to offer private Mass in member's homes .