Disturbing excerpts from interview with Cardinal Mahony (leftist in charge of LA Diocese)

RE Congress website ^ | 02-20-04 | online interview

[AAABEST]

Leonel M: Mel Gibson's upcoming movie "The Passion of the Christ" has had more than its share of headlines for the last year or more. But what is the relationship of Gibson's church near Malibu to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles? Is it part of a schismatic group?

Cardinal: I know nothing about the Church in Malibu. It is certainly not in communion with the Universal Catholic Church nor the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

I have never met Mr. Gibson, and he does not participate in any parish of this Archdiocese. He, apparently, has chosen to live apart from the communion of the Catholic Church. I pray for him.

The Holy Spirit is promised to the Church, as well as the presence of Jesus: "Behold, I am with you all days until the end of the world." Those words were spoken to the Church, not to an individual in any century.

Moderator: We have several related questions about Mel Gibson; I'll try to summarize them. Many people have the impression that Mel Gibson is -- for lack of a better word -- a "regular" Catholic. Could you briefly explain the Catholic traditionalist movement?

Cardinal: Actually, there is no such thing as the "Catholic traditionalist, modernist, movement." Either one is in full communion with the Catholic Church, in unity with the Successor of Peter, or not. One cannot pick and choose which Pope to follow, especially dead ones, or which teaching to follow -- and then set aside the rest. Such people may be very nice people, but that doesn't make them "Catholic" in the true sense.

Even the media is beginning "to get it" about these groups. We must give full assent to the Creed and all that the Church teaches.

Moderator: So if Mel Gibson does not accept the Church's teachings as outlined in Vatican II documents, he's "not Catholic in the true sense"?

Cardinal: The Sixteen Documents of the Second Vatican Council constitute the accurate, authentic teaching of the Church. Those teachings are now contained in the Catechism of the Church. If one chooses to set aside any of those, then they choose to separate themselves from the unity of the Church. Keep in mind that the first temptation of Adam and Eve was precisely this: Satan told them, "you will be like gods, choosing good and evil." Wrong.

Moderator: Users also ask if you plan to see "The Passion of the Christ."

Cardinal: Someone has offered to give me a VHS of the movie, and I will view it.

Runecaster95: Is it acceptable for Catholics to participate in acts of devotion such as Zen meditation and Hindu chanting, providing the emphasis remains on Christ?

Cardinal: Any form of prayer and meditation that helps us deepen our life in Jesus Christ is a positive. We might call the same type of prayer "centering prayer," or "Christian mantra."

Jane M.: Who do you think goes to heaven? Do you think people of other religions will be there? Do people who haven't accepted Christ as their savior go to heaven when they die?

Cardinal: As the Second Vatican Council teaches us, it is the Church's belief that everyone goes to heaven "through the salvific merits of Jesus Christ." Therefore, if they belong to another faith community, we believe that it is still the merits of Jesus' Paschal Mystery that enables them to reach the Kingdom of God.

Keep in mind that each of us "chooses" our final destiny, and God continually calls to us to return home.

[Antoninus]

Of course what you show is a GARGOYLE!!!! Give me a break!

Yeah, it's a gargoyle... that happens to be carved into a Aztec temple. Quetzalcoatl is an Aztec god.

This is not the one that appears on the door of the Cathedral. Perhaps I should have been more clear about that in retrospect.

[grammarman]

Sure he does. But his "chapel" is not in union with the Catholic Church, since it is not affiliated with the archdiocese of Los Angeles.

Where is it said that you have to get permission from the bishop to build a chapel?

[sinkspur]

Where is it said that you have to get permission from the bishop to build a chapel?

Canon Law.

[grammarman]

It may come as a surprise to you, but asking Mahoney for permission to build a chapel for the express purpose of celebrating a 'real' Mass would most certainly be denied. No table and those damned kneelers and the communion rail just would not pass muster.

[sinkspur]

It may come as a surprise to you, but asking Mahoney for permission to build a chapel for the express purpose of celebrating a 'real' Mass would most certainly be denied.

Sure it would, as would the request of a private individual building a chapel for the Novus Ordo Mass.

There ought not be any private chapels, unless utilized by a religious order of contemplatives.

[grammarman]

Why not?

[sinkspur]

Why not?

The Church is a body, in fact, the Body of Christ. That means it is a GROUP of believers who worship TOGETHER.

Individuals building chapels for their own personal use split up the community of the faithful.

[grammarman]

The Church is a body, in fact, the Body of Christ. That means it is a GROUP of believers who worship TOGETHER. Individuals building chapels for their own personal use split up the community of the faithful.

I've never been to church with you. Does that mean the community is split?

What keeps the GROUP TOGETHER is that they worship God in the SAME way.

This group mentality is not Catholic. We worship God individually. We are each responsible for our own sins.

If I worship at a private chapel or an oratory or a church, it should make no difference to you.

[sinkspur]

This group mentality is not Catholic. We worship God individually

Read Vatican II. We worship as the Body of Christ. Not as individuals.

If I worship at a private chapel or an oratory or a church, it should make no difference to you.

It's not about me. It's about the Church, and the Law of the Church (Canon Law) says that no individual is allowed to build his own chapel without the permission of the local bishop.

[Siobhan]

Good Lord, have mercy. Here we are again with you tossing around the Cod of Canon Law as if it is the only source of governance and as if you are the only arbiter of Church Law or governance.

FOR THE LAST TIME, the Holy Father's real and immediate power gives him the ability to permit chapels to be erected within diocese, to give faculties to priests, and to do all sorts of things outside of the scope of the local bishop. It was done long before the new Code and it has been done since this Code has been promulgated.

[sinkspur]

Can. 1226 The term private chapel means a place which, by permission of the local Ordinary, is set aside for divine worship, for the convenience of one or more individuals.

Can. 1227 Bishops can set up for their own use a private chapel which enjoys the same rights as an oratory.

Can. 1228 Without prejudice to the provision of Can. 1227, the permission of the local Ordinary is required for the celebration of Mass and of other sacred functions in any private chapel.

Please point out specific examples where John Paul II has given permission for local, private chapels to be established outside the jurisdiction of the local bishop.

[Siobhan]

Pointing out things done in pectore or for the relief of the faithful is not something I will do for you, sinkspur. Write the Holy Father or Msgr Dziwisz and inquire for yourself. Since you point out that john doesn't need a den mother, I imagine you don't need my assistance either.

[sinkspur]

Pointing out things done in pectore or for the relief of the faithful is not something I will do for you, sinkspur.

I knew you couldn't.

[Siobhan]

I can do many things. But I will resist your badgering and your games. But I will grant you that they are very helpful in light of my pre-Vatican II understanding of sanctification and of how to keep a holy Lent.

[sinkspur]

Disagreement is not badgering. Making people back up what they say is not badgering. Pointing out logical fallacies is not playing games.

Have a holy Lent.

[Siobhan]

You are what you are, and you obviously are convinced that your isogesis of Canon Law is a worthy approach. You have no compunction about presenting yourself as an expert on the Code of Canon Law, when you are not, and you look for a transparent historical record of papal acta that will not be made known, if ever, until the death of the local bishops involved, the current Pope, or possibly not until a determination of the Papal archivist at a future date. You know the traps you set, and the games you play. Call them by any noble phrase you like. Noble they are not.

You used to write vicious Freeper mail to my father history_matters. I do not expect you to be just or fair. You called him the most irritating person on FreeRepublic. So I always bear that in mind when I read your pontifical pronouncements. It helps me bear in mind what sort of person you have been as witnessed by your writing on forum and by Freepermail. Let others deduce if you are a worthy source to be believed, if you are a deacon, if you are a Catholic, if you are credible source of information. For my part, your words tell me, No, not likely so.

[drstevej]

I miss your dad, history_matters.

Blessings to you.

[livius]

Sinkspur almost drove me off of the FR religious forum because he managed to turn every thread into an argument about himself and his particular obsessions. We have interesting things to talk about here, and sinkspur is not one of them. He is rude, hostile and badgering. And I hope you complained to the moderator about his private mails to your father.

I simply don't respond to him if he posts to me, because I have found it not worth the trouble. I suggest that we all do the same.

[sinkspur]

And a nice Lent to you, too, livius.