Disturbing excerpts from interview with Cardinal Mahony (leftist in charge of LA Diocese)

RE Congress website ^ | 02-20-04 | online interview

[AAABEST]

Leonel M: Mel Gibson's upcoming movie "The Passion of the Christ" has had more than its share of headlines for the last year or more. But what is the relationship of Gibson's church near Malibu to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles? Is it part of a schismatic group?

Cardinal: I know nothing about the Church in Malibu. It is certainly not in communion with the Universal Catholic Church nor the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

I have never met Mr. Gibson, and he does not participate in any parish of this Archdiocese. He, apparently, has chosen to live apart from the communion of the Catholic Church. I pray for him.

The Holy Spirit is promised to the Church, as well as the presence of Jesus: "Behold, I am with you all days until the end of the world." Those words were spoken to the Church, not to an individual in any century.

Moderator: We have several related questions about Mel Gibson; I'll try to summarize them. Many people have the impression that Mel Gibson is -- for lack of a better word -- a "regular" Catholic. Could you briefly explain the Catholic traditionalist movement?

Cardinal: Actually, there is no such thing as the "Catholic traditionalist, modernist, movement." Either one is in full communion with the Catholic Church, in unity with the Successor of Peter, or not. One cannot pick and choose which Pope to follow, especially dead ones, or which teaching to follow -- and then set aside the rest. Such people may be very nice people, but that doesn't make them "Catholic" in the true sense.

Even the media is beginning "to get it" about these groups. We must give full assent to the Creed and all that the Church teaches.

Moderator: So if Mel Gibson does not accept the Church's teachings as outlined in Vatican II documents, he's "not Catholic in the true sense"?

Cardinal: The Sixteen Documents of the Second Vatican Council constitute the accurate, authentic teaching of the Church. Those teachings are now contained in the Catechism of the Church. If one chooses to set aside any of those, then they choose to separate themselves from the unity of the Church. Keep in mind that the first temptation of Adam and Eve was precisely this: Satan told them, "you will be like gods, choosing good and evil." Wrong.

Moderator: Users also ask if you plan to see "The Passion of the Christ."

Cardinal: Someone has offered to give me a VHS of the movie, and I will view it.

Runecaster95: Is it acceptable for Catholics to participate in acts of devotion such as Zen meditation and Hindu chanting, providing the emphasis remains on Christ?

Cardinal: Any form of prayer and meditation that helps us deepen our life in Jesus Christ is a positive. We might call the same type of prayer "centering prayer," or "Christian mantra."

Jane M.: Who do you think goes to heaven? Do you think people of other religions will be there? Do people who haven't accepted Christ as their savior go to heaven when they die?

Cardinal: As the Second Vatican Council teaches us, it is the Church's belief that everyone goes to heaven "through the salvific merits of Jesus Christ." Therefore, if they belong to another faith community, we believe that it is still the merits of Jesus' Paschal Mystery that enables them to reach the Kingdom of God.

Keep in mind that each of us "chooses" our final destiny, and God continually calls to us to return home.

[saradippity]

To what do you object?

I object to beating the drums to demand that we do not allow "celibate homosexuals" into the priesthood as long as the seminaries are using tests we have not seen and interviews of persons we do not know and who are often secular psychologists to determine the "fitness" of candidares.

God is a God of Order and we,His children on earth need to remember that. To say we do not want celibate homosexuals is fine but it begs the question of how using the tools that are used right now we are going to avoid it. It cannot be avoided right now,it is a waste of time to discuss it and it sets up future unhappiness by even pretending there is a means available to ensure this. You are asking for trouble on all counts.

Far more important is how to get rid of the active homosexuals and sympathetic heterosexuals in the priesthood right now. I'll bet a majority of them had no "intent" at ordination to bring the sacraments to God's children. Have you talked to the canonist yet?

[ninenot]

I posted the answer to Part One the other night: Ecclesia Supplet IS a jurisdictional matter, not related directly to the question of 'what grace is obtained in reception of invalid Communion...'

We're still working on that. A friend has snatched the two-volume work on Systematic Theo written by Fr. Keefe (SJ) at Marquette.

Keefe's a solid guy, proven by the fact that he was ignominously RETIRED from the MU Theo faculty by the then-Pres., a Fr. D'Ulio.

Keefe then became the Diocesan theologian for Bishop Stafford of Denver (a bona fides proof if there ever was one.)

Now all we have to do is find the answer to the question, midst the two volumes of text.

[ninenot]

Finally, much as I admire and love your posts and thoughts, I still don't understand your problem with forbidding the ordination of homosexuals (if known.)

Obviously, that will not be foolproof--there have always been, and will always be, ordained homosexuals.

But we certainly don't have to make it a point to find them, as has been the case in several Dioceses in this country for years...

[saradippity]

I am not sure whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.

I merely made a factual and true statement. If anyone can tell me how the ordination of "celibate homesexuals" can be prevented with the present tools available and at this point mandated,I would be happy to drop this entirely. However,given what "is",it is impossible.

[saradippity]

I agree totally with not ordaining homosexuals,if known. We were talking past one another since I would never agree to ordaining someone who said they were sexually attracted to other men,celibate or active. But I draw the line at declaring in advance that we will not ordain celibate homosexuals as long as the present testing process remains in place. God give us seminary directors who read souls like Padre Pio did.

[drstevej]

***We believe in papal infallibility, not bishop infallibility.***

True. But episcopal heretical statements is in another league. Do you not consider his words regarding universalism in the article to be heretical?

***Cardinal Mahoney may be one of the cardinals who elects the next pope, but wouldn't you grant simply as a matter of logic that the Holy Spirit could direct the outcome of the vote if the Spirit wanted to?***

The Holy Spirit could use a monkey, darts and a dart board if He so chose. My point is befuddlement over a Pope who will not address such error in the innermost circle. Should not a Cardinal be an example to the flock and a source of sound doctrine?

Chistian mantras? Very LA!

[dangus]

"Is that actually a winged serpent on the door of the new Los Angeles Cathedral? If so what significance does that have for Catholics? And if it isn't a winged serpent, what is it?”

It probably is a Seraphim. Although I'll agree the similarity with Aztec images is unfortunate and even foolish. Mahoney seems to simply not know the answer and to be directing him to a reference source so he can look it up.

[dangus]

Actually, Sinkspur, there is. Canon law finds that homosexual orientation is disordered, and that one must not ordain a priest with a disordered sexuality.

[sinkspur]

Keep in mind if this is the same church that won't give sacraments to women who've been divorced (whether by their own choosing or not),

Let's correct this:

Keep in mind if this is the same church that won't give sacraments to women who've been divorced and remarried(whether by their own choosing or not),

[sinkspur]

Cite the Canon.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

User barronista asks; "Is that actually a winged serpent on the door of the new Los Angeles Cathedral? If so what significance does that have for Catholics? And if it isn't a winged serpent, what is it?”

Cardinal: Actually, there are many signs and symbols on the [Cathedral’s] Great Bronze Doors. There are 40 different religious symbols, all of them portraying God's presence or power in a variety of faith traditions. Robert Graham's book in the [Cathedral] gift shop describes each in its totality.

What's interesting is that Mahony dodged the interviewer's question entirely. I'd buy the book but it's $40.00 and I don't want to support this travesty.

[dsc]

"If anyone can tell me how the ordination of "celibate homesexuals" can be prevented with the present tools available and at this point mandated,I would be happy to drop this entirely."

If a man who has homosexual longings never let anyone know and never acted on them, then there would be nothing that could be done.

However, men are more easily betrayed by their bodies than women. People are going to notice that a 22-23 year old man gets an erection from meat-gazing in the locker room.

You gave an example of a very badly designed question. Only one question is needed, though: "Does looking at naked male bodies give you an erection? Yes or no."

[AAABEST]

Yes you're correct, thank you.

[VermiciousKnid]

I don't know, BlackElk, the folks I know of that use "centering prayer" usually do so in the presence of crystals and sitar music by Vangelis. Tres New Age.

Perhaps this is just a semantic problem, because of course there is NOTHING wrong with contemplative prayer during which we as Catholics reflect on God, His Holy Sacrifice and how we can be more like Him. After all, cloistered monks and nuns do that all the time...

I just don't trust that Mahoney was talking about THAT sort of "centering prayer." Somehow I suspect he was referring to the Vangelis type. I suppose I could be wrong.

Regards,

[saradippity]

I do think your question is just fine and when they tell us that that is the question which will be used to determine sexual preference,I will be first to cheer them on.

Until they toss those tests out I think it unwise to demand a state that will allow them to claim legitimacy when they turn down innocent,pure,honest,good,holy men from the priesthood. A test for sexual preference can turn those aforementioned virtues into vices,e.g.immature,dishonest,developmentally fixated,delusional etc. and so on. The world as secularists see it is the polar opposite of what we see.Secularists designed the tests and interpret them at this time,the tests must go first.

We can't afford to give those guys one more thing to twist and spin and turn upside down use against us. They are masters at that.

If one reads the documents of Vatican II you see it in action.Pounds and pounds of Church teachings,a few ounces of vagueness and they let in half the ocean. No thanks.

[Aquinasfan]

True. But episcopal heretical statements is in another league. Do you not consider his words regarding universalism in the article to be heretical?

I didn't read the article, but I wouldn't doubt it. Of course, lots of us are probably material heretics in one way or another. Of greater concern is formal heresy. With Cardinal Mahoney, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

My point is befuddlement over a Pope who will not address such error in the innermost circle.

Me too. I don't understand it.

Should not a Cardinal be an example to the flock and a source of sound doctrine?

Absolutely. The bishops have failed in many ways, including their failure to excommunicate pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians.

[drstevej]

Looks like we are on the same page.

Don't read the article without having a barf bag handy.

[dsc]

"We can't afford to give those guys one more thing to twist and spin and turn upside down use against us. They are masters at that."

You're absolutely right. That's why I'm so nit-picky about the vocabulary people use. Terms like "social justice" and "gay" are part of the same thing.

[dsc]

"I just don't trust that Mahoney was talking about THAT sort of "centering prayer." Somehow I suspect he was referring to the Vangelis type."

Somehow Saint Francis de Sales got all the way through "Introduction to the Devout Life" without ever having to use the term "centering prayer."

http://www.ecatholic2000.com/desales/idl.html

Suspicion is justified *any* time you see people abandoning perfectly serviceable traditional Catholic terminology for new-age babble.

[John Locke]

Good point. I'm not going to debate over flavors of Cathiolicism, but I did note that this supposed archbishop tried to quote the Scriptures twice, and misquoted them both times.