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Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins
NY Times ^ | August 6, 2002 | By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 08/11/2002 3:59:04 PM PDT by vannrox



August 6, 2002

Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Two ancient skulls, one from central Africa and the other from the Black Sea republic of Georgia, have shaken the human family tree to its roots, sending scientists scrambling to see if their favorite theories are among the fallen fruit.

Probably so, according to paleontologists, who may have to make major revisions in the human genealogy and rethink some of their ideas about the first migrations out of Africa by human relatives.

Yet, despite all the confusion and uncertainty the skulls have caused, scientists speak in superlatives of their potential for revealing crucial insights in the evidence-disadvantaged field of human evolution.

The African skull dates from nearly 7 million years ago, close to the fateful moment when the human and chimpanzee lineages went their separate ways. The 1.75-million-year-old Georgian skull could answer questions about the first human ancestors to leave Africa, and why they ventured forth.

Still, it was a shock, something of a one-two punch, for two such momentous discoveries to be reported independently in a single week, as happened in July.

"I can't think of another month in the history of paleontology in which two such finds of importance were published," said Dr. Bernard Wood, a paleontologist at George Washington University. "This really exposes how little we know of human evolution and the origin of our own genus Homo."

Every decade or two, a fossil discovery upsets conventional wisdom. One more possible "missing link" emerges. An even older member of the hominid group, those human ancestors and their close relatives (but not apes), comes to light. Some fossils also show up with attributes so puzzling that scientists cannot decide where they belong, if at all, in the human lineage.

At each turn, the family tree, once drawn straight as a ponderosa pine, has had to be reconfigured with more branches leading here and there and, in some cases, apparently nowhere.

"When I went to medical school in 1963, human evolution looked like a ladder," Dr. Wood said. The ladder, he explained, stepped from monkey to modern human through a progression of intermediates, each slightly less apelike than the previous one.

But the fact that modern Homo sapiens is the only hominid living today is quite misleading, an exception to the rule dating only since the demise of Neanderthals some 30,000 years ago. Fossil hunters keep finding multiple species of hominids that overlapped in time, reflecting evolutionary diversity in response to new or changed circumstances. Not all of them could be direct ancestors of Homo sapiens. Some presumably were dead-end side branches.

So a tangled bush has now replaced a tree as the ascendant imagery of human evolution. Most scientists studying the newfound African skull think it lends strong support to hominid bushiness almost from the beginning.

That is one of several reasons Dr. Daniel E. Lieberman, a biological anthropologist at Harvard, called the African specimen "one of the greatest paleontological discoveries of the past 100 years."

The skull was uncovered in the desert of Chad by a French-led team under the direction of Dr. Michel Brunet of the University of Poitiers. Struck by the skull's unusual mix of apelike and evolved hominid features, the discoverers assigned it to an entirely new genus and species — Sahelanthropus tchadensis. It is more commonly called Toumai, meaning "hope of life" in the local language.

In announcing the discovery in the July 11 issue of the journal Nature, Dr. Brunet's group said the fossils — a cranium, two lower jaw fragments and several teeth — promised "to illuminate the earliest chapter in human evolutionary history."

The age, face and geography of the new specimen were all surprises.

About a million years older than any previously recognized hominid, Toumai lived close to the time that molecular biologists think was the earliest period in which the human lineage diverged from the chimpanzee branch. The next oldest hominid appears to be the 6-million-year-old Orrorin tugenensis, found two years ago in Kenya but not yet fully accepted by many scientists. After it is Ardipithecus ramidus, which probably lived 4.4 million to 5.8 million years ago in Ethiopia.

"A lot of interesting things were happening earlier than we previously knew," said Dr. Eric Delson, a paleontologist at the City University of New York and the American Museum of Natural History.

The most puzzling aspect of the new skull is that it seems to belong to two widely separated evolutionary periods. Its size indicates that Toumai had a brain comparable to that of a modern chimp, about 320 to 380 cubic centimeters. Yet the face is short and relatively flat, compared with the protruding faces of chimps and other early hominids. Indeed, it is more humanlike than the "Lucy" species, Australopithecus afarensis, which lived more than 3.2 million years ago.

"A hominid of this age," Dr. Wood wrote in Nature, "should certainly not have the face of a hominid less than one-third of its geological age."

Scientists suggest several possible explanations. Toumai could somehow be an ancestor of modern humans, or of gorillas or chimps. It could be a common ancestor of humans and chimps, before the divergence.

"But why restrict yourself to thinking this fossil has to belong to a lineage that leads to something modern?" Dr. Wood asked. "It's perfectly possible this belongs to a branch that's neither chimp nor human, but has become extinct."

Dr. Wood said the "lesson of history" is that fossil hunters are more likely to find something unrelated directly to living creatures — more side branches to tangle the evolutionary bush. So the picture of human genealogy gets more complex, not simpler.

A few scientists sound cautionary notes. Dr. Delson questioned whether the Toumai face was complete enough to justify interpretations of more highly evolved characteristics. One critic argued that the skull belonged to a gorilla, but that is disputed by scientists who have examined it.

Just as important perhaps is the fact that the Chad skull was found off the beaten path of hominid research. Until now, nearly every early hominid fossil has come from eastern Africa, mainly Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania, or from southern Africa. Finding something very old and different in central Africa should expand the hunt.

"In hindsight, we should have expected this," Dr. Lieberman said. "Africa is big and we weren't looking at all of Africa. This fossil is a wake-up call. It reminds us that we're missing large portions of the fossil record."

Although overshadowed by the news of Toumai, the well-preserved 1.75-million-year-old skull from Georgia was also full of surprises, in this case concerning a later chapter in the hominid story. It raised questions about the identity of the first hominids to be intercontinental travelers, who set in motion the migrations that would eventually lead to human occupation of the entire planet.

The discovery, reported in the July 5 issue of the journal Science, was made at the medieval town Dmanisi, 50 miles southwest of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital. Two years ago, scientists announced finding two other skulls at the same site, but the new one appears to be intriguingly different and a challenge to prevailing views.

Scientists have long been thought that the first hominid out-of-Africa migrants were Homo erectus, a species with large brains and a stature approaching human dimensions. The species was widely assumed to have stepped out in the world once they evolved their greater intelligence and longer legs and invented more advanced stone tools.

The first two Dmanisi skulls confirmed one part of the hypothesis. They bore a striking resemblance to the African version of H. erectus, sometimes called Homo ergaster. Their discovery was hailed as the most ancient undisputed hominid fossils outside Africa.

But the skulls were associated with more than 1,000 crudely chipped cobbles, simple choppers and scrapers, not the more finely shaped and versatile tools that would be introduced by H. erectus more than 100,000 years later. That undercut the accepted evolutionary explanation for the migrations.

The issue has become even more muddled with the discovery of the third skull by international paleontologists led by Dr. David Lordkipanidze of the Georgian State Museum in Tbilisi. It is about the same age and bears an overall resemblance to the other two skulls. But it is much smaller.

"These hominids are more primitive than we thought," Dr. Lordkipanidze said in an article in the current issue of National Geographic magazine. "We have a new puzzle."

To the discoverers, the skull has the canine teeth and face of Homo habilis, a small hominid with long apelike arms that evolved in Africa before H. erectus. And the size of its cranium suggests a substantially smaller brain than expected for H. erectus.

In their journal report, the discovery team estimated the cranial capacity of the new skull to be about 600 cubic centimeters, compared with about 780 and 650 c.c.'s for the other Dmanisis specimens. That is "near the mean" for H. habilis, they noted. Modern human braincases are about 1,400 cubic centimeters.

Dr. G. Philip Rightmire, a paleontologist at the State University of New York at Binghamton and a member of the discovery team, said that if the new skull had been found before the other two, it might have been identified as H. habilis.

Dr. Ian Tattersall, a specialist in human evolution at the natural history museum in New York City, said the specimen was "the first truly African-looking thing to come from outside Africa." More than anything else, he said, it resembles a 1.9-million-year-old Homo habilis skull from Kenya.

For the time being, however, the fossil is tentatively labeled Homo erectus, though it stretches the definition of that species. Scientists are pondering what lessons they can learn from it about the diversity of physical attributes within a single species.

Dr. Fred Smith, a paleontologist who has just become dean of arts and sciences at Loyola University in Chicago, agreed that his was a sensible approach, at least until more fossils turn up. Like other scientists, he doubted that two separate hominid species would have occupied the same habitat at roughly the same time. Marked variations within a species are not uncommon; brain size varies within living humans by abut 15 percent.

"The possibility of variations within a species should never be excluded," Dr. Smith said. "There's a tendency now for everybody to see three bumps on a fossil instead of two and immediately declare that to be another species."

Some discoverers of the Dmanisi skull speculated that these hominids might be descended from ancestors like H. habilis that had already left Africa. In that case, it could be argued that H. erectus itself evolved not in Africa but elsewhere from an ex-African species. If so, the early Homo genealogy would have to be drastically revised.

But it takes more than two or even three specimens to reach firm conclusions about the range of variations within a species. Still, Georgia is a good place to start. The three specimens found there represent the largest collection of individuals from any single site older than around 800,000 years.

"We have now a very rich collection, of three skulls and three jawbones, which gives us a chance to study very properly this question" of how to classify early hominids, Dr. Lordkipanidze said, and paleontologists are busy this summer looking for more skulls at Dmanisi.

"We badly want to know what the functional abilities of the first out-of-Africa migrants were," said Dr. Wood of George Washington University. "What could that animal do that animals that preceded it couldn't? What was the role of culture in this migration? Maybe other animals were leaving and the hominids simply followed."

All scholars of human prehistory eagerly await the next finds from Dmanisi, and in Chad. Perhaps they will help untangle some of the bushy branches of the human family tree to reveal the true ancestry of Homo sapiens.




TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: black; crevolist; discovery; dmanisi; dna; evolution; gene; genealogy; georgia; godsgravesglyphs; history; homoerectus; homoerectusgeorgicus; human; man; mtdna; multiregionalism; oldowan; origin; origins; paleontologist; republicofgeorgia; science; sea; skull; theory
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To: balrog666
Do you really need to have this explained to you another 40 times?

How about posting one of the many 'supposed' refutations instead of insulting? You too lame to cut and paste? You too lame to remember what the refutation was even after reading it supposedly some 40 times?

INSULTS ARE THE LAST RESOURCE OF SCOUNDRELS

401 posted on 08/16/2002 8:40:20 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: medved
And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Yup, as we have pointed out a few times, to explain the tremendous changes required to transform one species into another viable species, one needs to show the COevolution of numerous features. This of course is totally impossible under both gradual evolution (it would be ridiculous to say that many different features gradually co-evolved throughout a species) and punk-eek (it would be ridiculous to say that a whole species suddenly co-evolved a bunch of different features - in fact, it would constitute a miracle)

To show how difficult such a transformation would be let's take the transformation of reptiles (or dinosaurs) to birds:

In addtion to the feather and the avian lung [quite unique and made for flight because the whole system works by absorbing air in a single direction - unique amongst all vertebrates] there are many other unique features in the biology of the birds, in the design of the heart and cardiovascular system, in the gastrointestinal system and in the possession of a variety of other relatively minor adaptations such as for example, the unique sound producing organ, the syrinx, which similarly defy plausible explanation in graudalistic terms. Altogether it adds up to an enormous conceptual difficulty in envisaging how a reptile could have been gradually converted into a bird.
From: Michael Denton, Evolution a Theory in Crisis, page 213.

402 posted on 08/16/2002 9:01:47 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
You are correct, I was wrong. Now I understand my mistake.

!!!!!!!

Who are you and what did you do with Gore3000?!!?

403 posted on 08/16/2002 9:29:41 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: gore3000
How about posting one of the many 'supposed' refutations instead of insulting? You too lame to cut and paste? You too lame to remember what the refutation was even after reading it supposedly some 40 times? INSULTS ARE THE LAST RESOURCE OF SCOUNDRELS

Whew, he's back! Got worried there for a minute.

404 posted on 08/16/2002 9:30:59 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: VadeRetro
Related features co-evolve.

Another Vade whopper!
Some months ago I showed Vade that for evolution to be true he would have to develop a theory of coevolution, because it was utterly impossible for the many different features required to transform one species into another to gradually evolve at one time.

So what does Vade do? After a couple of months of ignoring what I said about co-evolution, he starts posting that funtions of species co-evolve! I guess his reference for it is my statement that such a thing is impossible. To Vade and fellow evolutionists just making something up constitutes proof!

Note to Vade: not even your hero Darwin was moronic (or dishonest) enough to claim such a thing happens.

405 posted on 08/16/2002 9:49:19 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
Right. This time it's posted in the "Smokey Backroom" forum.

You mean you evos had another thread pulled because of your slimes and insults? Wonder when FR will realize that the problem is not the subject, but the slimers.

406 posted on 08/16/2002 9:52:58 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
>Flame-off, gore...unless you'd like for me to hit the abuse button too.</p>
407 posted on 08/16/2002 9:55:36 PM PDT by Scully
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To: Scully
>Flame-off, gore...unless you'd like for me to hit the abuse button too.

You made a totally abusive and uncalled for post, I called you on it. You think you have some sort of divine right to abuse people and have nothing said about it? Well, you do not. Stop the abuse.

408 posted on 08/16/2002 10:26:40 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
Since you have given us so many testaments of your supposed learning, I cannot say that the statement that there exist self-replicating RNA molecules is a mistake. It needs to be called a blatant and humongous lie, and I am calling on you to prove you are not a liar.

I guess you are calling Dr. James Watson a liar, then, because I first heard about self-replicating RNA directly from him. In case you haven't heard of him, he won the Nobel Prize for his work in elucidating the structure of DNA. Catalytic RNAs are called ribozymes; they have the ability to splice and cleave phosphodiester bonds, which are the only activities required for a self-replicating molecule. You can look them up in PubMed. They are also discussed in several textbooks, including Genes IV by Benjamin Lewin.

409 posted on 08/17/2002 1:26:41 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: gore3000
Note to Vade: not even your hero Darwin was moronic (or dishonest) enough to claim such a thing happens.

The little problem I note, i.e. that without "coevolution" as you call it, the first feature to evolve would de-evolve while the second was evolving, is probably something the evos never noticed until now. Kind of paints em into a corner and then burns the corner, doesn't it?

410 posted on 08/17/2002 1:27:05 AM PDT by medved
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To: gore3000
In addition at over 200 million years old (supposedly) it is over a hundred million years away from the next definitely mammalian bones.

Don't put words in my mouth; I did not say 200 million years, I gave a general number, as I did not know exactly. I looked it up just now in the textbook, Biology: Exploring Life by Brum and McKane; it says mammals appeared between 195 and 135 million years ago.

411 posted on 08/17/2002 1:38:36 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: gore3000
Total nonsense. To imply that a plant is as complex as a human is ridiculous.

Is it? Why?

The reason men are more complex while having a smaller genome than some plants is that humans have very involved genomes which are able to reuse DNA in different ways, while most lower organisms cannot.

Oh, my. Now we're reusing DNA??? Is that like recycling??? Seriously, most of our DNA isn't being used at all.

Also, the junk is not junk at all. A Japanese puffer fish has just as many genes as humans and amazingly none of what you call junk DNA.

On what basis do you claim the fish has as many genes as humans? It could have more or less; without knowing the number of genes in either organism, it's impossible to know. But I will guarantee that the fish does have junk DNA. All eukaryotes do.

The reason it is less complex than man is because what you incorrectly call junk and what real scientists call 'non coding DNA'...

Oh, horrors, don't tell my dissertation committee I used the non-scientific word "junk"; they'll never give me my PhD. Oh, heck. It probably won't make a difference. I mean, I already told my committee chair that "pointy things" is the scientific term for the points protruding from cancer cells in Petri dishes, and he didn't kick me out. And I'm pretty big on the scientific words "icky" and "eeuw." Obviously, you do not have the experience with scientists to know how we talk amongst ourselves. Oh, and there is non-coding DNA that forms parts of genes, as in 5' regulatory elements, promoters, introns, 3' flanking... and non-coding DNA that does nothing but take up space, which is what I (and many others) call "junk."

... is what enables humans to do so much more with their genes than a puffer fish.

Ahem... first we're recycling our DNA, now we're doing just so much with it. Wow, we must be the Martha Stewarts of vertebrates, we do so much with so little...

1) Do you know the meaning of the word, "genome"? It does not appear that you do, but please define it for me.

2)Do you have any idea how genes work? Humans don't "do more" with their genes; if human genes were so incredibly different than those of other organisms, it wouldn't be possible to make human proteins in bacteria or yeast; yet, these are common techniques. I'm afraid that in basic function, our genes are pretty much like plant genes, cow genes, fish genes, frog genes... when you get right down to it, it's just chemistry.

412 posted on 08/17/2002 2:22:50 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: gore3000
Of course not, because a higher organism requires different DNA. If it was exactly the same you would have the same species would you not? Guess, you must have been sick when that class was given.

Oh, gee, where do I start? DNA consists of 4 nucleotides, abbreviated G, A, T, C, and all living things use them. Let's see... I use bacteria to grow DNA containing human genes, which I insert into mouse cells and test whether the human genes affect a mouse protein by measuring the amount of firefly enzyme that the cells produce... which is impossible, according to what you said. Yet I, and countless others, have published papers in peer-reviewed journals detailing just this kind of experiment.

And American taxpayers have spent tens of thousands of dollars for me to do this, too. Thank you, taxpayers!

413 posted on 08/17/2002 2:42:30 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: RightWingNilla
Who are you and what did you do with Gore3000?!!?

Hi, my name is exDemMom, and I managed to produce a bit of logic which g3k could not refuse. Sadly, tonight, g3k seems to be in insult mode, and does not seem to be receptive to logic.

About myself: I am a finishing PhD student of biochemistry and molecular biology, expecting final approval of my dissertation within a couple of months. My area of research is in the regulation of a gene activated by dioxin and related chemicals. Since I work so closely with the basic mechanics of gene expression, I find some of the things g3k says quite amusing.

414 posted on 08/17/2002 2:55:28 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: exDemMom
I managed to produce a bit of logic which g3k could not refuse

That was amazing. You have done what no one before you was able to accomplish. But, judging from your recent dialogue with g3k, it appears that the roll you were on has been abruptly terminated. Nevertheless, I admire your determination. Just don't take anything personally. Especially considering whence it comes.

415 posted on 08/17/2002 3:51:40 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: exDemMom
Don't put words in my mouth; I did not say 200 million years, I gave a general number, as I did not know exactly. I looked it up just now in the textbook, Biology: Exploring Life by Brum and McKane; it says mammals appeared between 195 and 135 million years ago.

Granted the Earth is older than the 6000 years once deduced from biblical chronologies; in all likelihood, it is not 135 or 195 million years old. The dating schemes you read about all depend upon uniformitarian assumptions; they're nothing but schemes of axiomatics.

Evolution, and the Redneck Watermelon Truck

The story goes that two old boys named Luke and Ray-Bob had themselves a truck and were buying watermelons in Fla. and Ga. for $2 and trucking them to Chicago and Detroit and selling them for $2. After awhile, they noticed that they were not making any money; naturally enough, they had a big business meeting and came to the conclusion that they needed a bigger truck.

Evolutionists, of course, are using time in precisely the same manner in which the two rednecks are using truck size, and there is no real reason for anybody to take them any more seriously than they would take the two rednecks.

Now, You couldn't easily prove that Luke and Ray-Bob couldn't possibly make money buying and selling for $2 since they could always say they merely needed the next size bigger truck. There is one thing which would really demolish their case however: that, God forbid, would be for somebody like Algor to get elected president and immediately outlaw the internal combustion engine; after THAT, guaranteed, nobody would ever make money trucking watermelons from Florida to Chicago and selling them for what they paid for them.

Likewise, If comebody could provide a coercive case for the fact that American Indians dealt with dinosaurs on a regular basis, then the time-frames which evolutionists so love to use as a magic wand to enable their doctrines would be demolished, the entire doctrine of evolutionism, broken. Not that there is any lack of logical proofs that no amount of time would suffice for macro-evolution but, without those time scales, no version of evolution is even thinkable, much less possible.


In this regard, evolutionists and geologists would appear to have developed a sort of a dinosaur-in-the-livingroom problem over the last few years. Take the case of Mishipishu, the "Water panther" for instance.

Petroglyphs show him with the dorsal blades of the stegosaur and Indian legends speak of him using his "great spiked tail" as a weapon. Remarkably, the Canadian national parks which maintain these pictographs are unaware of the notion of interpreting Mishipishu as a stegosaur, and refer to him only as a "manatou", or water spirit.

Vine Deloria is probably the best known native American author of the last half century or so. He is a past president of the National Council of American Indians, and several of his books, including the familiar "Custer Died for Your Sins", are standard university texts on Indian affairs.

One of Vine's books, "Red Earth, White Lies", is a book about catastrophism and about the great North American megaufauna extinctions which occurred around 12000 years ago (using conventional dating). In this book, Vine utterly destroys the standard "overkill" and "blitzkrieg" hypotheses which are used to explain these die-outs.

Vine informs me that "Red Earth, White Lies" is one of several books which arise from decades of research including conversations with nearly every story-teller and keeper of oral traditions from Alaska down to Central and South America. He tells me that, if there was one thing which used to completely floor him early on in this research, it was the extent to which most of these tribes retain oral traditions of Indians having to deal not only with pleistocene megafauna, but with dinosaurs as well. In "Red Earth, White Lies", he notes (pages 242-243) that:

Indians generfly speak with a precise and literal imagery. As a rule, when trying to identify creatures of the old stories, they say they are "like" familiar neighborhood animals, but then carefully differentiate the perceived differences. I have found that if the animal being described was in any way comparable to modern animals, that similarity would be pointed out; the word "monster" would not be used.

Only in instances where the creature bears no resemblance to anything we know today will it be described as a monster. Since no dinosaur shape resembles any modern animal, and since the reports are to be given literal credibility I must suggest that we are identifying a dinosaur. Thus, in the story of large animals at Pomme de Terre prairie in southwestern Missouri, a variant of the story suggests that the western animals were megafauna and the creatures who crossed the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers and invaded the lands of the megafauna were dinosaurs. The dinosaurs thus easily displace the familiar, perhaps Pleistocene, megafauna and move west, where we find their remains in the Rocky Mountains today

In numerous places in the Great Lakes are found pictographs of a creature who has been described in the English translation as the "water panther" This animal has a saw-toothed back and a benign, catlike face in many of the carvings. Various deeds are attributed to this panther, and it seems likely that the pictographs of this creature which are frequently carved near streams and lakes are a warning to others that a water panther inhabits that body of water. The Sioux have a tale about such a monster in the Missouri River. According to reports, the monster had ". . . red hair all over its body . . . and its body was shaped like that of a buffalo. It had one eye and in the middle of its forehead was one horn. Its backbone was just like a cross- cut saw; it was flat and notched like a saw or cogwheel" I suspect that the dinosaur in question here must be a stegosaurus.


Then there is the case of the Brontosaur Pictograph on rough stone.

This petroglyph, in fact, first came to light with the Doheney Expedition to Java Supai, the report of which comes not from the National Enquirer, but from the Peabody Muscum of American Ethnology at Harvard University.

Then there is the case of the man and brontosaur petroglyph at the Natural Bridges National Monument in Utah:

A book on Indian rock art sold atthe park visitors center notes:

"There is a petroglyph in Natural Bridges National Monument that bears a startling resemblance to dinosaur, specifically a Brontosaurus, with a long tail and neck, small head and all." (Prehistoric Indians, Barnes and Pendleton, 1995, p.201) The desert varnish, which indicates age, is especially heavy over this section.

Then again, there is the picture which the people at Bible.ca snapped of Don Patten with the petroglyph of the triceroptops:

And the pterodactyle at San Rafael Swell in Black Dragon Wash, Utah:

Like I say, it's never been easy to be an evolutionist, and it's not getting any easier.

416 posted on 08/17/2002 5:47:30 AM PDT by medved
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To: exDemMom
The thing which strikes me as overwhelming about the stegosaur glyphs is the fact that, aside from the one or two fairly accurate images like the one at Agawa Rock in Ontario, there are others which are more like ideograms rather than representational art, and yet all such show the dorsal spikes of the stegosaur because that is the way that all Indian lore describes the water panther.

Again, Indian oral traditions speak of Indian ancestors dealing with these kinds of creatures on a regular basis. American Indians view the 65 million year thing with dinosaurs as a whiteman's fairytale, and they are correct. There were handfuls of leftover dinosaurs kicking around just prior to the flood, and the real heyday of dinosaurs was, in all likelihood, 10,000 - 50,000 years back, but not 70 million or 200 million.

That pretty much blows all of the dating schemes we read about to hell, and it certainly does not leave time for anything like "evolution".

417 posted on 08/17/2002 5:52:23 AM PDT by medved
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To: exDemMom
Don't put words in my mouth;

No one is putting words in your mouth. The point is that paleontologists keep pushing the origins of species further and further back with almost no evidence for their proclamations because the 'missing links' do not really exist. So they call any bones they wish a this or a that to fill the hole.

418 posted on 08/17/2002 6:52:55 AM PDT by gore3000
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To: exDemMom
Hi, my name is exDemMom

Good to have you here!

Sadly, tonight, g3k seems to be in insult mode, and does not seem to be receptive to logic.

Standard Gore3000 fare. His posts are as ubiquitous and informative as the "Worlds Greatest Casino" ad.

About myself: I am a finishing PhD student of biochemistry and molecular biology, expecting final approval of my dissertation within a couple of months.

Good luck. I'm still working on mine (cell bio/signal transduction).

Since I work so closely with the basic mechanics of gene expression, I find some of the things g3k says quite amusing.

This is what I thought at first. It gets annoying very quickly. He once tried to tell me how the AUG codon was not the start of translation.

(BTW - Those "pointy" things could be lamellipodia or filipodia. Likely due to hyperactivacted RhoGTPases in transformed cells.)

419 posted on 08/17/2002 7:55:00 AM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: medved
... fairly accurate images like the one at Agawa Rock ...

You were disparaging imagination in an earlier post, but your idea of a "fairly accurate image" certainly requires a bit of imagination on your part.

Your Agawa Rock photo doesn't show the head of the creature very well. Here's a drawing of the same pictograph:

It looks rather like the head and body of a bovine with the dorsal spikes and tail of an alligator.

Here's a silhouette of a stegosaur for comparison.




Morrisseau's Missipeshu

In one of his early Medicine Paintings, Norval Morriseau painted this " Underwater Panther" or "Great Lion" as some Anishinabeg have named it. Nicholas Perot, who traveled the Great Lakes areas around 1667, reported that southern Anishnabeg "honour as the god of the waters the Great Panther whom the Algonkins and others who speak the same language call Michpissy."

(Visit the reference site)

420 posted on 08/17/2002 8:02:31 AM PDT by forsnax5
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