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Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins
NY Times ^ | August 6, 2002 | By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 08/11/2002 3:59:04 PM PDT by vannrox



August 6, 2002

Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Two ancient skulls, one from central Africa and the other from the Black Sea republic of Georgia, have shaken the human family tree to its roots, sending scientists scrambling to see if their favorite theories are among the fallen fruit.

Probably so, according to paleontologists, who may have to make major revisions in the human genealogy and rethink some of their ideas about the first migrations out of Africa by human relatives.

Yet, despite all the confusion and uncertainty the skulls have caused, scientists speak in superlatives of their potential for revealing crucial insights in the evidence-disadvantaged field of human evolution.

The African skull dates from nearly 7 million years ago, close to the fateful moment when the human and chimpanzee lineages went their separate ways. The 1.75-million-year-old Georgian skull could answer questions about the first human ancestors to leave Africa, and why they ventured forth.

Still, it was a shock, something of a one-two punch, for two such momentous discoveries to be reported independently in a single week, as happened in July.

"I can't think of another month in the history of paleontology in which two such finds of importance were published," said Dr. Bernard Wood, a paleontologist at George Washington University. "This really exposes how little we know of human evolution and the origin of our own genus Homo."

Every decade or two, a fossil discovery upsets conventional wisdom. One more possible "missing link" emerges. An even older member of the hominid group, those human ancestors and their close relatives (but not apes), comes to light. Some fossils also show up with attributes so puzzling that scientists cannot decide where they belong, if at all, in the human lineage.

At each turn, the family tree, once drawn straight as a ponderosa pine, has had to be reconfigured with more branches leading here and there and, in some cases, apparently nowhere.

"When I went to medical school in 1963, human evolution looked like a ladder," Dr. Wood said. The ladder, he explained, stepped from monkey to modern human through a progression of intermediates, each slightly less apelike than the previous one.

But the fact that modern Homo sapiens is the only hominid living today is quite misleading, an exception to the rule dating only since the demise of Neanderthals some 30,000 years ago. Fossil hunters keep finding multiple species of hominids that overlapped in time, reflecting evolutionary diversity in response to new or changed circumstances. Not all of them could be direct ancestors of Homo sapiens. Some presumably were dead-end side branches.

So a tangled bush has now replaced a tree as the ascendant imagery of human evolution. Most scientists studying the newfound African skull think it lends strong support to hominid bushiness almost from the beginning.

That is one of several reasons Dr. Daniel E. Lieberman, a biological anthropologist at Harvard, called the African specimen "one of the greatest paleontological discoveries of the past 100 years."

The skull was uncovered in the desert of Chad by a French-led team under the direction of Dr. Michel Brunet of the University of Poitiers. Struck by the skull's unusual mix of apelike and evolved hominid features, the discoverers assigned it to an entirely new genus and species — Sahelanthropus tchadensis. It is more commonly called Toumai, meaning "hope of life" in the local language.

In announcing the discovery in the July 11 issue of the journal Nature, Dr. Brunet's group said the fossils — a cranium, two lower jaw fragments and several teeth — promised "to illuminate the earliest chapter in human evolutionary history."

The age, face and geography of the new specimen were all surprises.

About a million years older than any previously recognized hominid, Toumai lived close to the time that molecular biologists think was the earliest period in which the human lineage diverged from the chimpanzee branch. The next oldest hominid appears to be the 6-million-year-old Orrorin tugenensis, found two years ago in Kenya but not yet fully accepted by many scientists. After it is Ardipithecus ramidus, which probably lived 4.4 million to 5.8 million years ago in Ethiopia.

"A lot of interesting things were happening earlier than we previously knew," said Dr. Eric Delson, a paleontologist at the City University of New York and the American Museum of Natural History.

The most puzzling aspect of the new skull is that it seems to belong to two widely separated evolutionary periods. Its size indicates that Toumai had a brain comparable to that of a modern chimp, about 320 to 380 cubic centimeters. Yet the face is short and relatively flat, compared with the protruding faces of chimps and other early hominids. Indeed, it is more humanlike than the "Lucy" species, Australopithecus afarensis, which lived more than 3.2 million years ago.

"A hominid of this age," Dr. Wood wrote in Nature, "should certainly not have the face of a hominid less than one-third of its geological age."

Scientists suggest several possible explanations. Toumai could somehow be an ancestor of modern humans, or of gorillas or chimps. It could be a common ancestor of humans and chimps, before the divergence.

"But why restrict yourself to thinking this fossil has to belong to a lineage that leads to something modern?" Dr. Wood asked. "It's perfectly possible this belongs to a branch that's neither chimp nor human, but has become extinct."

Dr. Wood said the "lesson of history" is that fossil hunters are more likely to find something unrelated directly to living creatures — more side branches to tangle the evolutionary bush. So the picture of human genealogy gets more complex, not simpler.

A few scientists sound cautionary notes. Dr. Delson questioned whether the Toumai face was complete enough to justify interpretations of more highly evolved characteristics. One critic argued that the skull belonged to a gorilla, but that is disputed by scientists who have examined it.

Just as important perhaps is the fact that the Chad skull was found off the beaten path of hominid research. Until now, nearly every early hominid fossil has come from eastern Africa, mainly Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania, or from southern Africa. Finding something very old and different in central Africa should expand the hunt.

"In hindsight, we should have expected this," Dr. Lieberman said. "Africa is big and we weren't looking at all of Africa. This fossil is a wake-up call. It reminds us that we're missing large portions of the fossil record."

Although overshadowed by the news of Toumai, the well-preserved 1.75-million-year-old skull from Georgia was also full of surprises, in this case concerning a later chapter in the hominid story. It raised questions about the identity of the first hominids to be intercontinental travelers, who set in motion the migrations that would eventually lead to human occupation of the entire planet.

The discovery, reported in the July 5 issue of the journal Science, was made at the medieval town Dmanisi, 50 miles southwest of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital. Two years ago, scientists announced finding two other skulls at the same site, but the new one appears to be intriguingly different and a challenge to prevailing views.

Scientists have long been thought that the first hominid out-of-Africa migrants were Homo erectus, a species with large brains and a stature approaching human dimensions. The species was widely assumed to have stepped out in the world once they evolved their greater intelligence and longer legs and invented more advanced stone tools.

The first two Dmanisi skulls confirmed one part of the hypothesis. They bore a striking resemblance to the African version of H. erectus, sometimes called Homo ergaster. Their discovery was hailed as the most ancient undisputed hominid fossils outside Africa.

But the skulls were associated with more than 1,000 crudely chipped cobbles, simple choppers and scrapers, not the more finely shaped and versatile tools that would be introduced by H. erectus more than 100,000 years later. That undercut the accepted evolutionary explanation for the migrations.

The issue has become even more muddled with the discovery of the third skull by international paleontologists led by Dr. David Lordkipanidze of the Georgian State Museum in Tbilisi. It is about the same age and bears an overall resemblance to the other two skulls. But it is much smaller.

"These hominids are more primitive than we thought," Dr. Lordkipanidze said in an article in the current issue of National Geographic magazine. "We have a new puzzle."

To the discoverers, the skull has the canine teeth and face of Homo habilis, a small hominid with long apelike arms that evolved in Africa before H. erectus. And the size of its cranium suggests a substantially smaller brain than expected for H. erectus.

In their journal report, the discovery team estimated the cranial capacity of the new skull to be about 600 cubic centimeters, compared with about 780 and 650 c.c.'s for the other Dmanisis specimens. That is "near the mean" for H. habilis, they noted. Modern human braincases are about 1,400 cubic centimeters.

Dr. G. Philip Rightmire, a paleontologist at the State University of New York at Binghamton and a member of the discovery team, said that if the new skull had been found before the other two, it might have been identified as H. habilis.

Dr. Ian Tattersall, a specialist in human evolution at the natural history museum in New York City, said the specimen was "the first truly African-looking thing to come from outside Africa." More than anything else, he said, it resembles a 1.9-million-year-old Homo habilis skull from Kenya.

For the time being, however, the fossil is tentatively labeled Homo erectus, though it stretches the definition of that species. Scientists are pondering what lessons they can learn from it about the diversity of physical attributes within a single species.

Dr. Fred Smith, a paleontologist who has just become dean of arts and sciences at Loyola University in Chicago, agreed that his was a sensible approach, at least until more fossils turn up. Like other scientists, he doubted that two separate hominid species would have occupied the same habitat at roughly the same time. Marked variations within a species are not uncommon; brain size varies within living humans by abut 15 percent.

"The possibility of variations within a species should never be excluded," Dr. Smith said. "There's a tendency now for everybody to see three bumps on a fossil instead of two and immediately declare that to be another species."

Some discoverers of the Dmanisi skull speculated that these hominids might be descended from ancestors like H. habilis that had already left Africa. In that case, it could be argued that H. erectus itself evolved not in Africa but elsewhere from an ex-African species. If so, the early Homo genealogy would have to be drastically revised.

But it takes more than two or even three specimens to reach firm conclusions about the range of variations within a species. Still, Georgia is a good place to start. The three specimens found there represent the largest collection of individuals from any single site older than around 800,000 years.

"We have now a very rich collection, of three skulls and three jawbones, which gives us a chance to study very properly this question" of how to classify early hominids, Dr. Lordkipanidze said, and paleontologists are busy this summer looking for more skulls at Dmanisi.

"We badly want to know what the functional abilities of the first out-of-Africa migrants were," said Dr. Wood of George Washington University. "What could that animal do that animals that preceded it couldn't? What was the role of culture in this migration? Maybe other animals were leaving and the hominids simply followed."

All scholars of human prehistory eagerly await the next finds from Dmanisi, and in Chad. Perhaps they will help untangle some of the bushy branches of the human family tree to reveal the true ancestry of Homo sapiens.




TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: black; crevolist; discovery; dmanisi; dna; evolution; gene; genealogy; georgia; godsgravesglyphs; history; homoerectus; homoerectusgeorgicus; human; man; mtdna; multiregionalism; oldowan; origin; origins; paleontologist; republicofgeorgia; science; sea; skull; theory
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To: exDemMom
Wrong: Only atheism provides no logical basis for morality. Evolution is not religion, it is a scientific theory and, as such, as no more relevance to morality than Einstein's theory of relativity, or Galileo's theory of a heliocentric universe, or electromagnetic theory, etc. So Jeffrey Dahmer believed in evolution. So what. I'll bet he also believed in electromagnetic theory and heliocentricity. So what. Ditto for Hitler and Stalin.

Beleif in heliocentrism did not cause Dahmer to kill people; belief in evolution did. Those are his own words.

Evolution is junk science with known pathological social and political consequences.

181 posted on 08/14/2002 3:53:12 AM PDT by medved
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To: exDemMom
You are somewhat new to our evolution/creationism threads, and I like your posting style. I further delight in your education. So it's only fair to warn you ... posting to g3k (as we abbreviate his screename) will plunge you into frustration and dispair. I speak not only for myself, but I think I'm expressing the cumulative opinions of several other regulars who have had the experience of attempting to converse with g3k over the last year or so.

He slings some big words around, but he does not know any science. He does not know what "proof" means. (In his mind, he has "proven" all his points; we have yet to make any points at all.) He never acknowledges that he has ever made an error, notwithstanding dozens -- perhaps hundreds -- of well-documented howlers. He greets any factual information that he doesn't like as a lie, and an assault on his religion. (In his mind, his brand of creationism literally IS Christianity.) In the next thread, he will "forget" any points you have made, and he will repeat his well-debunked nonsense. He seems impervious to reason. And -- this is the most pernicious -- he will accuse YOU of lying, ignoring facts, being unreasonable, etc.

Anyway, welcome aboard, and I hope you hang around our threads. But you can't let g3k discourage you. Personally, I regard him as entertainment. And I generally don't read his stuff at all. That makes things very tolerable around here.

182 posted on 08/14/2002 4:03:56 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: exDemMom
Perhaps you should know who "PatrickHenry is as well:

Unbridled lust leads to frustration and misunderstanding despite Jimmy Carter's advice to the lustlorn

Highlights include:

You were groping me on the thread. I warned you, you groped on, I pushed the abuse button. Very simple. You then went whining to all your friends and relations. I received about 4 emails from different people: "What happened?" "What did you DO?" "Who are you? Are you impersonating someone?" and other silly tinfoil stuff.

Why would you grope me? Because I had told you in a freepmail as to not embarrass you for comments which indicated your confusion that I was a woman. Do you deny that you received such a freepmail from me? Do you deny that you used it against me on the thread?

Whiners receive lots of attention and scrutiny. If other threads of yours were pulled, my guess is you were harassing someone else.

Then again, there're the FR threads on Who is PatrickHenry...

You get some real winners in the professional Evolutionist circle here...

For the lowdown on Chuck Darwin, stupidest white man of all time and his BS theory, and on the continuing efforts of feebs like Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge to keep the charade going for another generation:



183 posted on 08/14/2002 4:16:57 AM PDT by medved
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To: medved; exDemMom; Nebullis; VadeRetro; Junior; longshadow; jennyp; Scully; Piltdown_Woman
Why don't we thrash this out, thoroughly and in public? I regret that exDemMom finds herself in the middle, but she can just sit back, and enjoy the fireworks, and take in the lesson about the personalities that hang out here.

Now let us get right to the "groping" issue that medved likes to keep mentioning. (He also mentions that evolution is for idiots and that earth once orbited Saturn.) I have no idea whether Nebullis has ever distanced herself from that two-year-old charge of cyber-groping she once made about me. In any event, she no longer mentions it -- at least not that I'm aware of. But we did get into a "let it all hang out" dialogue many months a go, and I guess that thread is where medved picked up his "research material." If Nebullis wants to keep the issue alive and stand alongside medved in this matter, the ping I'm sending is her invitation to either pound on me, or medved, or whatever she likes.

184 posted on 08/14/2002 5:36:00 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: medved
Then again, there're the FR threads on Who is PatrickHenry...

Sure are a lot of 'banned accounts' posting on that 8 comment thread.

185 posted on 08/14/2002 5:48:07 AM PDT by TigersEye
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To: medved; PatrickHenry
For the lowdown on Chuck Darwin, stupidest white man of all time and his BS theory, and on the continuing efforts of feebs like Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge to keep the charade going for another generation:

I find this comment interesting for a number of reasons. First, there is an implicit racist statement: "stupidest white man" -- not "stupidest man." Secondly, there is the ad hominem: not only is Darwin stupid, but Gould and Eldredge are "feebs." Thirdly, there is absolutely nothing of substance in this posting at all. It is simply name calling. And this coming from a man who believes: Earth orbited Saturn closely without being torn apart by tidal forces, frozen and irradiated; the Grand Canyon was formed by a lightning bolt despite the lack of fulgarites; that dinosaurs lived only a few thousand years ago despite lack of paleontological evidence; and that humans are the result of genetic engineering on the part of a person or persons unknown. Methinks this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

186 posted on 08/14/2002 6:33:18 AM PDT by Junior
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To: PatrickHenry
You'd better get used to the idea that nobody is going to be taking any more of your particular brand of BS lying down, buddy.

You're basically not in any sort of a position to be offering up these little case histories of other people on FR; your own case history ain't that cool.

187 posted on 08/14/2002 6:34:44 AM PDT by medved
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To: ThinkPlease
A "what's more funny, the non-issue, or the fact that Medved read through 2 years of FR threads to find the non-issue" bump.
188 posted on 08/14/2002 6:38:21 AM PDT by ThinkPlease
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To: Junior
I'll say it again, you make it sound as if I just dreamed up the idea of planets orbitting Saturn; it turns out a lot of people believe that and not just me. Anybody interested can check out catastrophism.com, kronia.com, grazian-archive.com, or any of a hundred or so web sites dealing with the topic.

The basic reality is that I could believe that Earth was orbitting Saturn NOW and even that would not be stupid compared to evolutionism.

The big lie which is being promulgated by the evos is that there is some sort of a dialectic between evolution and religion. There isn't. In order to have a meaningful dialectic between evolution and religion, you would need a religion whicih operated on an intellectual level similar to that of evolution, and the only two possible candidates would be voodoo and Rastifari.

The dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. Professing belief in evolution at this juncture amounts to the same thing as claiming not to believe in modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic. It's basically ignorant.

Evolution has been so thoroughly discredited at this point that you assume nobody is defending it because they believe in it anymore, and that they are defending it because they do not like the prospects of having to defend or explain some aspect of their lifestyles to God, St. Peter, Muhammed...

To these people I say, you've still got a problem. The problem is that evolution, as a doctrine, is so overwhelmingly STUPID that, faced with a choice of wearing a sweatshirt with a scarlet letter A for Adulteror, F for Fornicator or some such traditional design, or a big scarlet letter I for IDIOT, you'd actually be better off sticking with one of the traditional choices because, as Clint Eastwood noted in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly:

God hates IDIOTS, too!

The best illustration of how stupid evolutionism really is involves trying to become some totally new animal with new organs, a new basic plan for existence, and new requirements for integration between both old and new organs.

Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.

For starters, every one of these things would be antifunctional until the day on which the whole thing came together, so that the chances of evolving any of these things by any process resembling evolution (mutations plus selection) would amount to an infinitessimal, i.e. one divided by some gigantic number.

In probability theory, to compute the probability of two things happening at once, you multiply the probabilities together. That says that the likelihood of all these things ever happening, best case, is ten or twelve such infinitessimals multiplied together, i.e. a tenth or twelth-order infinitessimal. The whole history of the universe isn't long enough for that to happen once.

All of that was the best case. In real life, it's even worse than that. In real life, natural selection could not plausibly select for hoped-for functionality, which is what would be required in order to evolve flight feathers on something which could not fly apriori. In real life, all you'd ever get would some sort of a random walk around some starting point, rather than the unidircetional march towards a future requirement which evolution requires.

And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such reature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.

Now, it would be miraculous if, given all the above, some new kind of complex creature with new organs and a new basic plan for life had ever evolved ONCE.

Evolutionism, however (the Theory of Evolution) requires that this has happened countless billions of times, i.e. an essentially infinite number of absolutely zero probability events.

And, if you were starting to think that nothing could possibly be any stupider than believing in evolution despite all of the above (i.e. that the basic stupidity of evolutionism starting from 1980 or thereabouts could not possibly be improved upon), think again. Because there is zero evidence in the fossil record (despite the BS claims of talk.origins "crew" and others of their ilk) to support any sort of a theory involving macroevolution, and because the original conceptions of evolution are flatly refuted by developments in population genetics since the 1950's, the latest incarnation of this theory, Steve Gould and Niles Eldredge's "Punctuated Equilibrium or punc-eek" attempts to claim that these wholesale violations of probabilistic laws all occurred so suddenly as to never leave evidence in the fossil record, and that they all occurred amongst tiny groups of animals living in "peripheral" areas. That says that some velocirapter who wanted to be a bird got together with fifty of his friends and said:

Guys, we need flight feathers, and wings, and specialized bones, hearts, lungs, and tails, and we need em NOW; not two years from now. Everybody ready, all together now: OOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

You could devise a new religion by taking the single stupidest doctrine from each of the existing religions, and it would not be as stupid as THAT.

But it gets even stupider.

Again, the original Darwinian vision of gradualistic evolution is flatly refuted by the fossil record (Darwinian evolution demanded that the vast bulk of ALL fossils be intermediates) and by the findings of population genetics, particularly the Haldane dilemma and the impossible time requirements for spreading genetic changes through any sizeable herd of animals.

Consider what Gould and other punk-eekers are saying. Punc-eek amounts to a claim that all meaningful evolutionary change takes place in peripheral areas, amongst tiny groups of animals which develop some genetic advantage, and then move out and overwhelm, outcompete, and replace the larger herds. They are claiming that this eliminates the need to spread genetic change through any sizeable herd of animals and, at the same time, is why we never find intermediate fossils (since there are never enough of these CHANGELINGS to leave fossil evidence).

Obvious problems with punctuated equilibria include, minimally:

1. It is a pure pseudoscience seeking to explain and actually be proved by a lack of evidence rather than by evidence (all the missing intermediate fossils). Similarly, Cotton Mather claimed that the fact that nobody had ever seen or heard a witch was proof they were there (if you could SEE them, they wouldn't BE witches...) This kind of logic is less inhibiting than the logic they used to teach in American schools. For instance, I could as easily claim that the fact that I'd never been seen with Tina Turner was all the proof anybody should need that I was sleeping with her. In other words, it might not work terribly well for science, but it's great for fantasies...

2. PE amounts to a claim that inbreeding is the most major source of genetic advancement in the world. Apparently Steve Gould never saw Deliverance...

3. PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.

4. PE requires an eternal victory of animals specifically adapted to localized and parochial conditions over animals which are globally adapted, which never happens in real life.

5. For any number of reasons, you need a minimal population of any animal to be viable. This is before the tiny group even gets started in overwhelming the vast herds. A number of American species such as the heath hen became non-viable when their numbers were reduced to a few thousand; at that point, any stroke of bad luck at all, a hard winter, a skewed sex ratio in one generation, a disease of some sort, and it's all over. The heath hen was fine as long as it was spread out over the East coast of the U.S. The point at which it got penned into one of these "peripheral" areas which Gould and Eldredge see as the salvation for evolutionism, it was all over.

The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.

And there's one other thing which should be obvious to anybody attempting to read through Gould and Eldridge's BS:

The don't even bother to try to provide a mechanism or technical explaination of any sort for this "punk-eek"

They are claiming that at certain times, amongst tiny groups of animals living in peripheral areas, a "speciation event(TM)" happens, and THEN the rest of it takes place. In other words, they are saying:

ASSUMING that Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happens, then the rest of the business proceeds as we have described in our scholarly discourse above!

Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.

I ask you: How could anything be stupider or worse than that? What could possibly be worse than professing to believe in such a thing?




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Splifford the bat says: Always remember:

A mind is a terrible thing to waste; especially on an evolutionist.
Just say no to narcotic drugs, alcohol abuse, and corrupt ideological
doctrines.

189 posted on 08/14/2002 6:40:01 AM PDT by medved
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To: medved
I still think you should post in blue so we can more easily skip over your 1,000th posting of the same old horsesh!t.

Please, think about it.

190 posted on 08/14/2002 6:54:37 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: medved; Admin Moderator
Oh great. I'm the recipient of the 1500th spam posting of medved's "God Hates Idiots Too" posting.
191 posted on 08/14/2002 7:00:49 AM PDT by Junior
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To: gusopol3
we have long known that the Garden of Eden was in East Africa."

I disagree. I think it was Arabia Felix during the Climatic Optimum, 4500 years ago. Rainfall was abundant, and both Arabia and Libya were grasslands with flowing water. Then the atmosphere began to cool a few degrees, and desertification set in as the southerly monsoons died out and the trade winds became established in the tropics.

The resultant desertification of Arabia sent successive waves of Semitic husbandmen both north and south in search of adequate pasturage: across the Red Sea in one direction, and into the Fertile Crescent in the other. Which is why Abraham was born in Ur of the Chaldees. He was an Amorite, of the band called Habiru, or "Hebrews" to us.

192 posted on 08/14/2002 7:08:06 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Aric2000
Why do you think God does not rain food on the head of hungry people in Africa? Especially, the Christian Sudanese who are systematically being starved, enslave, and converted to Islam by force. Do you think he used to cook a few thousands years ago for the Israelites, and now he does not remember where his kitchen is?
193 posted on 08/14/2002 7:12:45 AM PDT by philosofy123
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To: TonyRo76
Those closed-minded fundamentalist Christians militant Darwinians are so focused on G*d Human Reason that they stubbornly refuse to accept anything that isn't in the Bible proven by Science.

I would say that in the courtroom of ideas, when you find a hundred witnesses shouting a hundred different and contradictory stories, it's "reasonable" to ask for some evidence. I am always amused when "human reason" is treated as a perversion, even a sin. Perhaps you could tell me exactly what aspect of humanity was created in God's image -- our genitles, perhaps. Or might it be our minds, and our curiosity?

194 posted on 08/14/2002 7:18:17 AM PDT by js1138
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To: PatrickHenry
. . . a loose association of the dropouts of modern society, who have little in common other than zero understanding of, and hostility toward, science.

After reading your countless postings supporting evolution THEORY, this statement is the best self-characterization yet presented on FR!

195 posted on 08/14/2002 7:20:57 AM PDT by caprock
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To: TonyRo76
That's roughly 4000 BC, which would pretty much jive chronologically with the bok of Genesis!

Oh -- gosh, how did that happen?!

196 posted on 08/14/2002 7:21:33 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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"1500 spam posts and still going strong" marker...


197 posted on 08/14/2002 7:24:06 AM PDT by general_re
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To: medved
This post of yours at #98 and again at #186 is a brilliant rational argument that there is no God. But I,m still not convinced.
198 posted on 08/14/2002 7:25:56 AM PDT by TigersEye
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Comment #199 Removed by Moderator

Comment #200 Removed by Moderator


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