A Question for FR McCain Detractors

FR | 2-23-08 | Bob J

[Bob J]

Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.

FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.

The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.

Allow me to explain.

I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.

As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.

So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.

It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.

[MeekOneGOP]

hehe! :^D

Welp! Guess ah better head out and see if ah kin
make a $ or 2 to pay these darned bills!

See ya’ll later!

Have a SUPER SUNDAY !!

[tomnbeverly]

So you one of them Obamacan’s... Personally I don’t care who you vote for..

My point remains valid. If you do not support McCain then you enable Obama... Its really simple logic...

Obama has already claimed he will retreat in the GWOT.. he will pull our troops from Iraq... I don’t really remember when that became a Conservative issue but if you think he is your man for change then vote for him...

In the General election campaign we are going to find out exactly what Obama wants for America... If that is what you want for this country then by all means enable him, give him a mandate to make the country a Marxist heaven...

But when you do and when Conservatism is dead and gone the way of the KKK you will have no one to blame but yourself....

I wish McCain had collapsed his campagin in 07 but it didn’t, I wish Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham had embraced Fred Thomspon with a Fervor that would have ignited the entire GOP but they didn’t, I wish Hillary could beat Obama so the country would at least have a chance of survival but she won’t, So all I can hope for is that rational minds prevail in NOV and do what is in the best interest of the country.

[ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas]

>>So you one of them Obamacan’s...<<

Wrong. Insults won’t win support for McCain. I voted for Hunter. Calm down, as McCain would say. Some of us are trying to decide what to do, and hoping McCain will try to convince us that he deserves our vote.

>>Personally I don’t care who you vote for..<<

I think you do, if you have been telling the truth.

[tomnbeverly]

Fair enough...

[ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas]

>>I wish McCain had collapsed his campagin in 07 but it didn’t, I wish Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Laura Ingraham had embraced Fred Thomspon with a Fervor that would have ignited the entire GOP but they didn’t, I wish Hillary could beat Obama so the country would at least have a chance of survival but she won’t, So all I can hope for is that rational minds prevail in NOV and do what is in the best interest of the country.<<

Can’t argue with that, but of course “what is in the best interest of the country” may not be that clear at this point.

[rolling_stone]

I’m not workiong hard for or against McCain. I am greatly dissapointed that in this nation of 300 million people it looks like we will have the choice of two marxists and an all over the road liberal to be President of the US. That in itself is sad.

McCain is too old to have two terms so if he wins we will be looking for someone else in 4 years (or less). I disagree with McCain on Mc Cain Feingold, McCain Kennedy and no Gitmo waterboarding and US trials for terrorists. I agree that US presence in Iraq may be needed for years to come. That stated those issues are almost the same as the two democratic candidates,(except they will cut and run from Iraq) but they of course add in universal health care and higher taxes for the “rich”. Class warfare pure and simple.

If this country is going to get back on a self providing, small government, free speech, 2nd amendment track we need more conservative people in office. A McCain nominee/president sends the wrong message to other republicans and will give them the message that conservatives don’t matter. Look at Kalifornia and its liberal governor who has an R after his name. Is that how you want this nation to go, right down the toilet?

I think it would be easier for the GOP in Congress to fight a democrat’s liberal programs and amnesty that to fight McCain. Gridlock for the next 4 years is the best I can hope for, if Mc Cain is in he will push his amnesty which will ruin this country forever. True the dems plan the same thing, but I feel it would be easier to stop them than McCain. If he would sign a pledge against amnesty (no matter how it is worded) I would reconsider my current ideas which of course are subject to change over the next 8 months.

If Dems are in they will screw up the war on terror and the economy and help us down the road. I am not looking to the immediate future but down the road aways.

[DoughtyOne]

All I know is the MIA folks don’t think much of him. It was my understanding it was to open up relations and facilitate trade but if that is incorrect it was unintentional. I appreciate your comments.

[DoughtyOne]

That’s my take on it. This guy is registered in the wrong party.

[DoughtyOne]

;-)

[DoughtyOne]

You too MeekOneGop. Later...

[NewLand]

Thanks DoughtyOne for your (usual) very thoughtful and respectful reply. We're probably closer to being in agreement than you may realize.

Instead of me replying point-by-point, as some of your points I agree/understand, some I don't, allow me to ask two questions:

1) What specifically do you propose we do about this besides 'not voting' for McCain?
2) How do we get it started right here on FR?

I'm not conceding anything yet, just need to understand exactly where you want to take all this discontent you expressed.

One more thought; I haven't voted for McCain just yet. A lot can change between now and November. As I mentioned, I'd love to see this whole thing get flipped on it's back and make it a more transparent choice between real ideologies instead of the vague political haze we have currently.

One more question; why do so many good conservatives sit on the sidelines?

[free_life]

As for McCain being more fit to be President than Hillary or Osama. The guy I saw dumpster diving the other day is more fit than Hillary or Osama. The fact is none of these 3 are fit to lead this nation.

[DoughtyOne]

I realize we are closer together than our suggested courses of action imply.  We both want conservatism (read that our founding principles) to flourish.  You see a course of action along traditional lines, and I see where those traditional lines have brought us over the last twenty years, and are certain to bring us over the next twenty years.

In answer to your first question, I must first point out that we are conservatives.  Being conservatives the worst possible thing we can do is splinter.  If all of us vote for McCain, he may lose anyway.  The numbers in the primaries showed the democrats putting out vastly superior numbers in every primary.  If half of us vote for him, it's questionable how he could win.  And if none of us don't vote for him, he's dead meat.

Not knowing if he is even going to win with our vote, what's the smart thing to do?  Should we signal the republican party that it will have our full support with the likes of McCain, and convince it that it shouldn't take any corrective measures to get back on track with conservatives?  To me that sounds like the worst possible thing we could do, if we truly want the party to move back to the right, but hey that's where I'm coming from.  Others seem to disagree.

You know what my answer is even before I give it.  I don't think John McCain is worthy of our vote.  There isn't really anything to add to that.  If he isn't worthy of my vote, he won't get it.  If others wish to back this person, they are obviously free to do so.  Conservatives will splinter on November the 5th, and our voice will mean nothing to anyone.  Half the group will be severely trashed by McCain, republicans, and the RNC.  The dems will tickled pink that conservatism has destroyed any value it could have had in this election, the best possible scenario for them.  Four years of no conservative influence being taking seriously, it just couldn't get any better.  You're probably thinking this is what happens when McCain loses.  No, it's what happens when he wins.

The Republican party will be forced to oppose the democrats if it ever wants to hold power again, if the dems win.  It won't have to promote conservatism if McCain wins.  How can anyone fail to see the truth of this?

In answer to your second question, we start acting like principled conservatives.  We announce what our principles are, and demand better from the RNC.  Then we take a long walk away from the party until it pulls it's head out.  I don't like the prospect of this, but I am left with no other choice.  I've already registered as an independent and I'll have nothing to do with the RN... make that the DNC II until it reverts to sound principles.

If McCain is elected anyway, I would suggest we get to work developing a third party that has a platform that tells it like it is from A to Z.  And then I suggest we get that party on the ballot in all 50 states.  And then I suggest we get folks elected in local districts all the way up to the state level, and sometime during the process, we elevate the most capable for president.

I would suggest that we be very careful who is signed on board as leaders.  I would suggest that our candidates be means tested, and if they swerve off course we dismiss them from the party.  The John McCains of the nation would be unable to join our party and dissemble the party's beliefs from A to Z with impunity.  If the guy couldn't understand a simple issue like Gitmo, he would be shown the door.

Why do so many conservatives sit on the sidelines?  Because they are sick of seeing conservatives be their own worst enemies.  They are sick and tired of watching them vote in people who are not conservatives, and being pounded if they raise their voices to object.  And last but not least, they are beginning to drop out rather than play along with this self defeatist charade any longer.

[rockrr]

"My point remains valid. If you do not support McCain then you enable Obama... Its really simple logic...:

Another McCain supporter who favors insults over dialog. Cool.

"But when you do and when Conservatism is dead and gone the way of the KKK you will have no one to blame but yourself...."

That particular bit of ugly rhetoric is as wrong-headed as it is disgusting and despicable. That you conflate Conservatism with the KKK is beneath contempt. You can no more "kill" Conservatism than you can truth itself - you can only stifle it. Currently the GOP is choking Conservatism for all its worth. Promoting sell-outs like McCain ensure the continued backwater status of the Republican arty and those who drink the kool-aid only hasten its marginalization.

Limbaugh et al, did endorse and promote conservatives, although they didn't tell anyone specifically who to vote for. And we should be smart enough not to need someone to tell us how to vote (you don't need someone to tell you how to vote, do you?!)

What would be in the best interest of this country would be for the GOP to back someone who would serve the American people - not his selfish personal self interest.

[PA-RIVER]

Slander McCain? You have got to be kidding.

McCain has been slandering Republicans for the last 10 years in order to get his face on TV every weekend.

Giving the Democrats the Majority in both houses was his “Bag” for the last 10 years.

[so_real]

Great bullet points ... so true, it’s sad.

[MeekOneGOP]

Wrong party is exactly right!

[ntnychik]

Excellent statement of principles, Phil, or, GREAT RANT!

[Bob J]

D1, It's taken me a couple days of hit and miss FReeping to get through all the responses. I'm trying to organize the them to get a clear idea of their substance and then post a response.

One thing I noticed about many and in regards to your first response, my question wasn't why people didn't support McCain, it was why they were trying to get others to do so as well. Peoples opinions on McCain have been posted at great length for some time, pro and con, and they are well known.

Some people will vote for their candidate of choice and be done with it while others will feel a greater need to get others to do so as well by volunteering, talking to friends and neighbors, maybe donating. The second group is compelled by not only the support of a candidates positions but also a great desire to see that person elected.

That goes both ways. Some people will be so offended by a candidate that they could never vote for them and may just stay home on election day or vote for another candidate. Then there are those who feel the need to go the extra distance to make sure that candidate doesn't get elected.

And that was what I didn't understand. Staying home, voting for another candidate or sending a "message" to the RNC made sense, but actively working to get O or H elected didn't. I think I have the answer now, but my question was a good one and not condescending in any way.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks.