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Thanks DoughtyOne for your (usual) very thoughtful and respectful reply. We're probably closer to being in agreement than you may realize.

Instead of me replying point-by-point, as some of your points I agree/understand, some I don't, allow me to ask two questions:

1) What specifically do you propose we do about this besides 'not voting' for McCain?
2) How do we get it started right here on FR?

I'm not conceding anything yet, just need to understand exactly where you want to take all this discontent you expressed.

One more thought; I haven't voted for McCain just yet. A lot can change between now and November. As I mentioned, I'd love to see this whole thing get flipped on it's back and make it a more transparent choice between real ideologies instead of the vague political haze we have currently.

One more question; why do so many good conservatives sit on the sidelines?

I realize we are closer together than our suggested courses of action imply. We both want conservatism (read that our founding principles) to flourish. You see a course of action along traditional lines, and I see where those traditional lines have brought us over the last twenty years, and are certain to bring us over the next twenty years.

In answer to your first question, I must first point out that we are conservatives. Being conservatives the worst possible thing we can do is splinter. If all of us vote for McCain, he may lose anyway. The numbers in the primaries showed the democrats putting out vastly superior numbers in every primary. If half of us vote for him, it's questionable how he could win. And if none of us don't vote for him, he's dead meat.

Not knowing if he is even going to win with our vote, what's the smart thing to do? Should we signal the republican party that it will have our full support with the likes of McCain, and convince it that it shouldn't take any corrective measures to get back on track with conservatives? To me that sounds like the worst possible thing we could do, if we truly want the party to move back to the right, but hey that's where I'm coming from. Others seem to disagree.

You know what my answer is even before I give it. I don't think John McCain is worthy of our vote. There isn't really anything to add to that. If he isn't worthy of my vote, he won't get it. If others wish to back this person, they are obviously free to do so. Conservatives will splinter on November the 5th, and our voice will mean nothing to anyone. Half the group will be severely trashed by McCain, republicans, and the RNC. The dems will tickled pink that conservatism has destroyed any value it could have had in this election, the best possible scenario for them. Four years of no conservative influence being taking seriously, it just couldn't get any better. You're probably thinking this is what happens when McCain loses. No, it's what happens when he wins.

The Republican party will be forced to oppose the democrats if it ever wants to hold power again, if the dems win. It won't have to promote conservatism if McCain wins. How can anyone fail to see the truth of this?

In answer to your second question, we start acting like principled conservatives. We announce what our principles are, and demand better from the RNC. Then we take a long walk away from the party until it pulls it's head out. I don't like the prospect of this, but I am left with no other choice. I've already registered as an independent and I'll have nothing to do with the RN... make that the DNC II until it reverts to sound principles.

If McCain is elected anyway, I would suggest we get to work developing a third party that has a platform that tells it like it is from A to Z. And then I suggest we get that party on the ballot in all 50 states. And then I suggest we get folks elected in local districts all the way up to the state level, and sometime during the process, we elevate the most capable for president.

I would suggest that we be very careful who is signed on board as leaders. I would suggest that our candidates be means tested, and if they swerve off course we dismiss them from the party. The John McCains of the nation would be unable to join our party and dissemble the party's beliefs from A to Z with impunity. If the guy couldn't understand a simple issue like Gitmo, he would be shown the door.

Why do so many conservatives sit on the sidelines? Because they are sick of seeing conservatives be their own worst enemies. They are sick and tired of watching them vote in people who are not conservatives, and being pounded if they raise their voices to object. And last but not least, they are beginning to drop out rather than play along with this self defeatist charade any longer.