Posted on 04/14/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Dean Baker
Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005
NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.
"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."
The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."
The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.
"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."
It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.
"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.
He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."
Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."
Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.
"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.
James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.
"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."
Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.
"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.
Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "
He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.
Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.
The definition was referring to the "senses," as in the ability to see, or hear. Tell me do you know a believing Christian as soon as you look at them? Elsie you are trying way to hard to make an argument.
Explain why the Church wasn't lost for 1500 years when no one believed 'sola scriptura'.
'Sola scriptura' is not historical. When the Apostles and the bishops appointed by them preached, they didn't preach out of a book. There was no Bible. Not only did lay-people not have a Bible, *no* Christian had a Bible. It wasn't written yet! And the canon took hundreds of years to form. If you understand that, you will understand how 'sola scriptura' is actually refuted by the very of the history of the Church. Scripture *could* not have been the authority of the Church during that time. Therefore, the Protestant has to say that at some arbitrary point in time (who knows when), authority magically passed from the bishops to the Scriptures. Before, Christians had to obey their bishops. But after that point in time, Christians could ignore their bishops (since each Christian became his own bishop or Pope).
You make Luther and Calvin your authorities, because they are the one's who started 'sola scriptura'. You are following a philosophy that just started 500 years ago. Before that, no one thought like that. That modern philosophy is an innovation. (And Protestants balk at the notion of "development"!) This philosophy lies at the beginning of the rise of the Enlightenment and Romanticism and Egalitarianism, where human Reason (and Feeling and Will) is made the new God. We all, by means of our own Reason, determine the meaning of Scripture for ourselves. We all, by means of our own Reason, are authorities on the meaning and teaching of Scripture. And thus, as a result, no one is an authority. This is the democratization of the Church, the rejection of the hierarchical structure instituted by Christ and the Apostles. What we now see in Protestantism (30,000 denominations) is the natural result of a philosophy that make each man his own pope. If my Reason is the highest authority, then I do not need Popes, or bishops, or priests, or pastors, or anyone. 'Me and my personal Jesus are perfectly complete, thank you.'
The Scripture does not teach that everyone should have their own copy of the Scriptures, or that we must all interpret the Bible for ourselves. (Protestants misinterpret the passage on the Bereans so as to import a completely modern notion of individualism foreign to the first 1500 years of the Church. What is noble about the Bereans is not their individualism or egalitarianism, but rather their desire to understand fully.) The Scripture does not provide us with the canon, i.e. tell us which books belong to Scripture. You make the Protestant leaders your authorities, because you follow the canon that they decided. Luther (and Lutherans for 100 years after Luther rejected Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelation, II Peter, II and III John. Eventually Lutherans returned to the canon decided by the Calvinists and Anglicans. Elsie, why don't you decide for yourself which books belong to the Bible? Why do submit to authority of other men to determine which books belong to the Bible? It was the Puritan divines at the Westminster Assembly (in the 1640s) who decided the present Protestant canon. Why do you submit to these men, and treat them like a college of Cardinals? Luther rejected the Apocryphal books of the OT in his edition of the Bible in the 1530s. Why do you listen (and submit) to Luther's decision on this matter, if you are so opposed to human authority? Moreover, since, in your view, we are all our own Pope with regard to interpretation of Scripture, why do you try to convince others of your view? By doing so, you contradict your own philosophy. If, as you believe, I am my own Pope regarding the interpretation of the Scripture, then how dare you try to push your interpretation of Scripture on me. If you were to be truly consistent with your individualist philosophy, you would remain absolutely silent about all matters of interpretation of Scripture. But, no. You are not content to be your own Pope; you want to be Pope over others as well, and hence you keep pushing your view on others. So which is it? Will you be consistent with your "We-are-all-our-own-Pope" view, or will you continue to contradict it by pushing your views of Scripture on others?
-A8
Yes!!
Just like the RCC!
I am my own pope, for........
NIV Galatians 3:24-29
24. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
26. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
27. for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ .
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. If you belong to Christ , then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
NIV Colossians 3:11-18
11. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
17. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Elsie, since you believe that you are your own pope, and that each Christian is his or her own pope, why do try to push your views on others? If I am my own pope, and it is up to me alone to interpret Scripture for myself, (and you are not my pope, or my authority in any way), then why do you try to correct me? By doing so, you contradict your own philosophy. Does contradicting yourself not bother you?
-A8
I am fully aware of the history of the Baptist church, as I have taught it in church. Blaming the current Catholic church and Pope for the sins of the past corrupt people who ran it is the same argument that as blaming the present day banks and corporations for their ancestor's role in black slavery. You cannot punish the children for the sins of the father. If you make a statement of the sort as was on the sign, then you are judging someone that you have no right to do, only God has that right. I would no more tell a drug addict or any other person that they were going to hell as I don't know that, nor can I know that. Only God knows. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is supposed to be GOOD NEWS, not BAD NEWS. It is not my place to judge anyone. and certainly not the Pope....................
No more than the RCC.
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.""But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
Already answered here: #1301
-A8
I don't understand what you mean by "Because you say", but if you know the difference between primary and secondary sources, you will know why primary sources trump secondary sources.
I imagine you prefer Latin to the original Greek as well,
Not true, but I cannot stop you from thinking it if you choose to be led by your imagination and not by reason.
and that any mention I might make concerning petros, petras, and other stuff like maybe the rock there is Jesus Christ will also be equally dismissed.
You seem to be assuming that I am an unreasonable person, who is driven by dogma alone, and does not consider the evidence. Again, you are free to think what you want about me, but according to the principle of charity, you should think the best of your interlocutor. If you have good evidence and argumentation, it will withstand any challenge. If you don't have good evidence and argumentation, then your position could get refuted. But, either way, you would be benefitted, because you would have a better understanding of the truth.
True, those were given to Peter first. Yet, Christ repeats Himself in Mt. 18:18. In this section of scripture He speaks to the entire church - giving them the same authority and ability.
First, you are assuming that in Matt 18 He speaks to the entire Church. How can you justify that assumption? Second, you are assuming that the authority He gives to the Apostles (and only to the Apostles) in Matt 18 is identical to the keys He gave to Peter in Matt 16. How can you justify that assumption? Catholics believe that all the Apostles have the authority to bind and loose. But Catholics also recognize that Christ gave the keys to Peter, that Peter was the rock upon which He would build His Church, and that Peter was appointed by Christ as the chief or primary Apostle. (Amazingly, 'sola scriptura' people criticize Catholics for bringing in doctrine not contained in Scripture, and yet the 'sola scriptura' people want to speculate, and bring in extra-biblical theories, such that the keys are just the same authority He gave to the Apostles in Matt 18, or that there are twelve keys, and Christ gave one to each Apostle.)
And the churches at Antioch, and Ephesus, and Corinth, and Thessalonica, and all the others, equally share that authority.
How do you know? Asserting it does not make it so. You need to show evidence that this is the case, and refute the evidence supporting the other side.
One of the points you ignore is the fact that each church in Revelation receives it's own letter
This is fully compatible with Catholic belief.
and that before the New Testament is complete, we see a plurality of equal, scriptural, local, and visible, Spirit led, New Testament assemblies.
Where does it say that they are "equal"? Or are you importing that into Scripture?
It's been real, it's been fun. Heck, at times it's even been real fun. But I feel like we're at the point of diminishing returns
If you're only willing to go this far, then you can't expect to reach the bottom of the issue. I don't care whether it is fun or painful for me or you. The fact is, it is a very important issue, and one that is worth studying vigorously and diligently until we get to the truth.
-A8
No more than the RCC.
Those who explicitly welcome contradictions in their own position are not persons with whom any kind of productive discussion is possible.
-A8
Feel free to leave the field..............
The "you" is singular in the Greek. He is talking only to Peter. I will give [soi] to you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever "you" (singular) bind, ... whatever "you (singular) ....
-A8
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KJV Matthew 16:13-21 13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. |
ASV Matthew 16:13-20 13. Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is? 14. And they said, Some say John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15. He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? 16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18. And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19. I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20. Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ. |
LIT Matthew 16:13-20
13. |2064| coming |1161| And |2424| Jesus |1519| into |3588| the |3313| parts |2542| of Caesarea |5376| of Philip |2065| he questioned |3588| the |3101| followers |0846| of him, |3004| saying, |5101| Whom |3165| me |3004| do say |0444| people |1511| to be, |3588| the |5207| Son |3588| of |0444| Man? 14. |3588| they |1161| And |2036| said, |3303| Some |9999| {say}, |2491| John |3588| the |0910| Immerser. |0243| others |9999| {say} |1161| And |2243| Elijah. |2087| others |9999| {say} |1161| And |2408| Jeremiah, |2228| or |1520| one |3588| of the |4396| prophets. 15. |3004| He says |0846| to them, |5210| you
|1161| But, |5101| whom |3165| me
|3004| do you say
|1511| to be?
16. |0611| answering |1161| And |4613| Simon |4074| Peter |2036| said, |4771| you
|1488| are |3588| the |5547| Christ, |3588| the |5207| Son |3588| of |2316| God |3588| the |2198| living!
17. |2532| And |0611| answering |2424| Jesus |2036| said |0846| to him, |3107| Blessed |1488| are you ,
|4613| Simon |0920| Bar-Jonah |3754| because |4561| flesh |2532| and |0129| blood |3756| not |0601| did reveal |9999| {this}
|4671| to you ,
|0235| but |3588| the |3962| Father |3450| of me |1722| in |3588| the |3772| heavens.
18. |2504| I also |1161| And |4671| to you
|3004| say, |3754| -
|4771| you
|1487| are |4074| Peter, |2532| and |1909| upon |5026| this |4073| bedrock |9999| {statement} |3618| I will build |3450| of me |3588| the |1577| community |2532| and |9999| {the} |4439| gates |0086| of Hades |3756| not |2729| will prevail against |0846| her.
19. |1325| I will give |4671| to you
|3588| the |2807| keys |3588| of the |0932| kingdom |3588| of the |3772| heavens, |2532| and |1437| whatever
|1210| you bind
|1909| on |3588| the |1093| earth will be, |2071| having been |1210| bound |1722| in |3588| the |3772| heavens, |2532| and |1437| whatever
|3089| you loose |
1909| on |3588| the |1093| earth |2071| will be, |3089| having been loosed |1722| in |3588| the |3772| heavens.
20. |5119| Then |1291| he warned |3588| the |3101| followers |2443| that |3367| to no one |2036| they may tell |3754| that |0846| he |2076| is |2424| Jesus |3588| the |5547| Christ. |
-A8
Understand that there are also Greek scholars who are not in agreement with your take on this passage. Just for other readers of this thread that are not knowledgeable in Greek, I think that they should be aware that your take on this passage is not a gimme.
See here ----> http://www.aomin.org/Epitetaute.html
Dean,
I was raised in a Catholic home but now am in a baptist church. It is a church in the south, very conservative, and people actually bring their bibles and take notes every Sunday. We have 6,000 people ATTEND worship services per Sunday. Remarkably 50% of our new members are Catholics.
It is quite unfortunate to hear some fleshly remarks from some Christians when there are doctrinal differences. Not all "born again" Christians use such poor judgement. There are times where it is necessary to point out theological errors, but not in this particular way.
For the record, I was saved while in the Catholic church and moved to the Baptist church because I was hungry for God's Word. That was 10 years ago.
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